Quote from: Seccour on December 12, 2016, 10:12:07 PM

Quote from: cryptohunter on December 12, 2016, 09:40:30 PM

Quote from: strasboug on December 12, 2016, 09:28:11 PM

Quote from: cryptohunter on December 12, 2016, 07:53:18 PM

Quote from: valley365 on December 12, 2016, 07:05:27 PM

"fair launch POW" will not be fair at all, it favors people with more hash power thus those with more BTCs (they can buy hash power at places like nicehash). ICOs even worse, it put priority to those who have more BTCs and satisfy first the greedy of the dev, instead of encouraging dev to do a better work. And many garbage coins and promises on the papaer are created this way.

Fair launch POW favours nobody at all. You all have to contribute the same effort to mine. The only real variable is cost of electricity and over a short mining period that does not mean much.

Of course if you have more money you can rent more hash? but you are actually being charged the same as anyone else. You are actually spending money you are not getting coins for free however rich you are. This method is giving you a LOT more FREE coins just because you are rich and have more BTC you do not have to spend your BTC to get it. So you are getting hugely unfair advantage at no cost or risk at all.

...

Of course PoW favors big guys with hash power. Just look at other coins for PoW, who got the most of the coins? Go to a pool and look, big guys got it all. For a small guy like me, I'd prefer what Tony defined for distribution. The distribution is not once for all, but several distribution and also count the BBs you have. So it is fair.

Come on ....of course the more hash power you have the more coins you will mine. That's not at all what I am saying is it?

Rich guy wants to rent hash he has to pay the same as you to rent hash.

Rich guy wants BB he gets magnitude more than you will for putting the same effort in of linking his BTC whale account.

Can you see here that BB is less fair than POW?

I can't reverse time and circumstances that made him rich and you poor can I? Life maybe was not fair but in crypto you can make things a little more fair for the poor (non BTC whales)

I am saying to you that this method will ensure that he (rich guy) will put the same effort and cost as you into BB and get magnitudes more coins. Where as if it was POW to get 2x more coins than you he will have to spend 2x more? If he spends the same as you he will get the same.

Yes there will be argument he owns his farm and you are renting hash - so what he had to buy the hardware. FYI I have a tiny amount of rigs in my house and will get far less mining than I will by linking my BTC accounts.

Also lots of hash whales tend to rent hash now on launches. Most GPU huge farms stick to high volume coins to unload and pay electricity and hardware loans anyway.

Please stop with your PoW. You want to move from a distribution model where anyone can gets byteball for free to one where you have to either mine yourself or rent hashpower. Who the hell do you think will rent hashpower ? People with a lot money because people with a tiny amount are not going to risk it.

The current distribution method is more fair than PoW because :
You don't risk your money : in PoW you have to either mine yourself - so you pay hardware and electricity or rent it, so both case you pay
Anyone can join easily : two methods to link your BTC address and there is lot of tutorials - not the case for PoW, it's not that easy to mine even with tutorials for a guy lambda
Easy to put handle for the creator : creating a PoW coin just to make an initial distribution, then make a snapshot, then distribute the real coins is to much work for nothing.

move from a distribution model where anyone can gets byteball for free

you speak like everyone gets the same amount of BB? the rich get ALL of the Byteball practically and the poor get basically nothing even though they put in the same effort.

People with a lot money because people with a tiny amount are not going to risk it.

You take risk and you may get reward or may lose money? how is this unfair? People who are poor get rich taking risk, man rish were once poor and took a risk. You take the same risk as anyone else and you gain the same as anyone else. Nobody gets a cheaper shot at BB than anyone else.

You don't risk your money : in PoW you have to either mine yourself - so you pay hardware and electricity or rent it, so both case you pay

This is where I think most people are missing the point or not understanding. Let me give you an example to help you work this out. This will be a very simple example.

Let's imagine every alt since the start was distributed in this way.

BTC whales are now - LTC whales - DOGE whales - every alt whales - they still have all their BTC they never need to spend any so they will OWN the whale share and nobody else ever has a chance to own alts or gain a large share unless whales choose to sell their alts to others and increase the value and holdings of their BTC giving them even more power on the next BB type distribution.

Now with POW

BTC whales are NOT whales in every alt. Most BTC whales are anti alts because they view them as competition. Sure some BTC whales have invested (swapped some of their BTC for some alts) this reduces their BTC holdings and ensures they can not be whales in every alt and still remain a BTC whale forever.

'Just because you get something for "free" does not make it "fairer" than if you invest or work to get it. Can you not understand this?

This is a very short sighted view.

Right now anyone holding alts and involved in alt coins should pray this method does not take off. Your share of the altcoin sphere will reduced to fragments of the crumbs you already hold. Or if you hold a lot of alt coins (not crumbs) this method is even more damaging to you than you realise.

Anyway I have explained in clear terms how you can not simply give the most to the already richest and give the least to the already poorest and make it fair. It will become clearer if other alts distribute this way.

This was proposed in 2013 and everyone in the alt community refused it. Why? because back then people understood that this method of distribution is the only way BTC whales will control everything forever because they take NO risk to be whales in every alt. Most BTC whales will not risk their BTC on mining alts or investing in ICO so they don't automatically become whales in every single alt forever so other people get a chance to get some alts and built some value in it themselves even if they have to invest from the start. WHen wales hear they are now wales in everything with no risk they will love it because they will be able to crush every alt at will with the resulting value always going back to BTC where they own the whales share.

Your view is like saying there is a race with shit prizes and amazing prizes first there get the best prizes. YOu (the poor) get a free lift 0.005% of the way.... the whales get taken to the finish line for free.

Then you (the poor) saying that(the above way) is better than having everyone paying the same amount for their lift per mile per vehicle. Faster vehicles cost everyone the same amount so you want to go faster you all have to pay more.

It is crazy. Sure the rich can PAY to be taken to the finish line faster whilst you may not choose to spend that money risking the prizes are of enough value to warrant spending this expense. But they (the rich) have to pay to get the best prize. You could pay the same amount as them and get the good prizes. Nobody even knows if the good prizes are that good only that they are better than the shit prizest so many of the rich may not bother to pay and will walk like you or not even enter the race.

This current method is just you saying ok it's fair the rich are taken free of charge to the end of the race and the best prizes for no cost to them and guaranteeing the poor get the shit prizes.

You are thinking to yourself I get something for free anyway. You do not. If in an economy the rich just keeping getting more and more and the poor get less and less (even for free) the disparity becomes so great that everything in that economy (crypto markets in this case) become more and more and more unobtainable for the poor.

I'm hopeful this explanation will help you see the that your idea of "fair" is totally unfair once you look at the larger picture. Please read over everything and give me an example with some depth that shows you have taken a look at the bigger picture.

How about this idea then would you approve of this.

For every BTC address that exists you just get an equal amount of BB? sure the rich can split thier address down and down to more. But that is effort and hassle. Maybe the poor man will think his time is worth less so he will take time to split his wallets down and down to get more bb?

tonych is a math guru and very smart guy. What about some other distribution that uses the bitcoin chain. How about you take the average BTC in an address and the further from that average the less you get? I know for sure a smart person like tonyCH could easily invent and execute a way more fair manner of distribution than what it currently is.

Let's discuss not only POW but other bitcoin based free dispersal methods.

To those saying we should discuss the tech and not focus on the initial distributional method. I suggest you look at dash. They could and should have taken over BTC really they were so far ahead of the curve. Why did they not??

Because everytime that coin is mentioned or they try to talk about their new tech they are drown out by those who want to talk about their initial distribution. That project is hamstrung by that forever and I believe no serious investors or business will touch it on the basis of that.

Get the initial distribution wrong and make it look like a scam to enrich only the already rich and face being a pariah coin forever.

Dash has done way better than most coins that are pariahs only because to be fair the instamine has been used to develop the coin somewhat. Sure evans and his pals extracted a ton for themselves but a reasonable amount was reinvested into the coin and developement has been strong. However it will never be the coin it could have been if they took that in a premine fairly and allowed fair POW mining from the start.

This current method to me is much worst than dash's was. Luckily the dev team took the huge share. Here whales, exchanges and other ICOs will take it all with the dev not having much (that we know of unless he runs other projects , is a whale or runs an exchange

) so the huge whale amounts will not go to development as some did with dash. It will simply be used to pump and dump over and over extracting BTC from investors.

So how about it then

Find the average BTC held in wallets on a snapshot and the further from that amount you are the less you get? would that no be fairer?

Would it not be possible to even inversely reward BTC ownership. The less you have (say minimum 0.1 BTC) the more BB you get. Im sure someone as smart as tonych can think of something much fairer than it is now.

Let's reward the poor for once? or reward the average guy? lets not always reward the rich.

Let's invite some smart people to find a fairer way to use BTC holdings to distribute alts if that's a great idea. Some maths boffin could probably devise something that is actually quite fair but I suspect it would need to be on a random date snapshot or one close to announcement to prevent gaming. Even then trying to game it requires effort does it not? splitting you 50000Btc into 0.1 wallets to claim could be quite a pain in the ass. Better than just giving them whale shares for nothing. Make them work for it if they have to be whales in all new alts.