Quote from: deeplink on April 02, 2013, 03:56:32 PM

Quote from: mobodick on April 02, 2013, 03:45:32 PM

Recently here in the netherlands a large group of youth decided to organize through facebook in a celebration of pure freedom from society.

I'm very aware of Project X in Haren. I am absolutely unconvinced by your, our politicians and the main stream analysis that forcing people to obey is the way to solve this. What you see is the result of not so intelligent people unsatisfied with current suppressive society, which uses coercion, force and violence. Opposing this with institutionalized violence called the state is the worst solution. Time will tell and when the SHTF I'm going to watch it with disgust from a distance. Because Project X will probably be a picknick compared to what is coming to The Netherlands.

I'm just convinced that we cannot do completely without.
I'm also not sure force is per se a good way to solve this. But often it is the only way to prevent incidents and promote stability.

Maybe a good thing about institutionalized violence (as opposed to naturally occuring random violence like being pillaged by the neighbours) is that it does have to act less to have an effect. Once a party is established as a controller there will be less competition for that role. This mechanism is a heritage from times when we were less evolved but its still pretty active in humans.

The reason it was teenagers that broke the rules in haren is a direct consequence of teenagers having lots of hormones that drive them to opposing the controller without any real reason. Their genes are telling them: fuck the police, I AM the police, I AM the youth and you will grow older and then i will beat you into submission and be the new top dog. Of course they don't understand this themselfs very well.
And after puberty we learn to control these urges and see that all we actually want for ourselfs is a stable life with food on the table for as many people as possible.
And then we start to see that this greater control mechanism is pretty usefull, especially when not acting. It's a referecne point to everyone in society who wants to use violence against a fellow citizen.
Of course this is the general idea and you can put forward good arguments about how certain situations will drive people into violence anyway and you'd be right. But all that would not be possible if there was not a more or less stable substrate in the first place. Having your rights taken away is meaningless if they hadn't been established in the first place. A few hundred years ago most people had no rights whatsoever in society, so we're making progress here.

But again, we need to be ever watchfull to prevent this overarching mechanism from smothering society as this is a very real problem. My feelings are that democracy can only achieve this partially and so i think we need new tools for controling our governments.

Humans cannot have a society in complete freedom and they cannot have a society under complete control.
In the middle we need to find a road that will ensure our survival in the long run.