Quote from: r0ach on December 19, 2016, 12:58:44 PM

Quote from: iamnotback on December 18, 2016, 03:54:24 PM

The Jews sit outside the collectivism and anneal with it groupwise

Collectivism is the fault of those who participate in it

Most irrational thing I've ever read. Jews are the most collectivist, borg-like, hive mind people on the planet. This is why they're currently winning. History is a lesson of individuals coming in contact with collectivist groups, who then force the individual into his own collectivist group in order to not be trampled.

You attempted to take a contrarian viewpoint on the Jewish question out of some ego trip and failed miserably. It's already been analyzed by millions of intelligent people before all coming to the same conclusion.

Collectivists are a threat to the freedom of the individual, but collectivists cannot be beaten without participating in an opposing collectivist group yourself.

My understanding is that the Judaism holds that personal responsibility and the Torah is the way to achieve true freedom. They view the 10 commandments in particular as necessary restrictions to maintain a free society. The Jewish view on freedom is nuanced.

Judaism and Freedom
http://m.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/161003/jewish/What-Kind-of-Freedom-is-this-Anyway.htm

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It depends on how you define freedom. If being free means doing whatever you want, with no rules or limits whatsoever, then you are right. If I am only free as long as no one tells me what to do and I can follow my every whim and fancy, then being forbidden to eat bread is indeed an infringement of my "freedom."

But is that really freedom? Am I not then just a slave to my whims and fancies? What if my fancies are not really coming from me? Maybe I have desires that were placed in my head by others. Am I truly free if I follow those desires? What if I have instinctive drives that are harmful to myself? Can you call me free if I am bound by those drives? What about compulsive or addictive behavior? Bad habits? Can't you also be a slave to what you want?

Judaism defines freedom very differently. True freedom is the ability to express who you really are. If there are levels to your personality that have not been explored, if your soul has not had the opportunity to be expressed, then you are not yet free.

The Torah is the instruction manual to our souls. Even its seemingly restrictive laws are only there to allow us to tap in to our inner self. Because sometimes it is only through restrictions that our true self can come out.

Another less abstract explanation of the same point can be found here:
https://www.prageru.com/courses/religionphilosophy/i-am-lord-your-god

There is no doubt that many Jews especially secular Jews currently and historically have taken leadership roles in the left and many of those causes are undoubtedly collectivists.

However, the left is not Judiadm a point that was highlighted recently by Dennis Prager who is Jewish.

Left-Wing Jews Are Embarrassing Judaism
http://www.dennisprager.com/left-wing-jews-are-embarrassing-judaism/

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A highly respected American rabbi named Dr. Irving Yitz Greenberg used to tell American Jewish audiences, whether Reform, Conservative Orthodox, I dont care what denomination youre a member of, as long as youre ashamed of it.

I have adopted that phrase, and I apply it to religions generally. One could just as easily say to Catholics, Protestants and Muslims, I dont care what religion you identify with, as long as youre ashamed of it. Meaning, of course, youre ashamed of what many of its members have done to it.
Just think of what has happened to much of mainstream Protestantism; to much of Catholicism, including, sadly, the current pope; and most especially, to the Islamic world.

Given the subject of this column the destructive influence of leftism on Jews and Judaism it is relevant to mention some of my Jewish involvement. Among other things, I taught Jewish history and religion at Brooklyn College, was the spokesman for the Student Struggle for Soviet Jewry, have written two books and hundreds of essays and columns on Jews and Judaism, received the American Jewish Press Association Louis Rapoport Award for Excellence in Jewish Commentary, have brought many thousands of Jews to Judaism and have lectured to more Jewish groups in the past 40 years than almost any living Jew.

So, I say this with only sadness: Many American Jews on the left, including rabbis and lay leaders, are embarrassing Jews and Judaism. I say this to ring an alarm in Jewish life and to tell non-Jewish America that these people represent leftism, not Judaism. Furthermore, I am talking only about leftist Jews, not liberal Jews. Unfortunately, however, liberalism has become synonymous with leftism both within and outside Judaism.
This past week, the embarrassing behavior of left-wing Jews reached a new level.

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that Jews and their clergy at various synagogues around America were gathering to sit shiva the Hebrew and Jewish term for the seven-day period of grieving that Jews engage in after the loss of an immediate relative because Donald Trump was elected president.
Consider for a moment how childish and narcissistic this is, using the sacred ritual reserved for the death of ones child or parent as a way to express disappointment over a presidential election.

And of course, there were the irresponsible, over-the-top outbursts by Jewish columnists and academics. Take Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank, who devoted his column after the election to writing an open letter to his 12-year-old daughter...

Add similar comments made during the election by other Jewish leftists in the media and academia, and you get the picture.

How are we to understand this?

Heres one explanation: When Jews abandoned Judaism, many of them did not abandon Judaisms messianic impulse. From Karl Marx the grandson of two Orthodox rabbis and onwards, they simply secularized it and created secular substitutes, such as Marxism, humanism, socialism, feminism and environmentalism.

If left-wing Jews want to sit shiva, they should do so for their religion, which, like much of Protestant Christianity and Roman Catholicism, has been so deeply and negatively influenced by leftism.

For the reasons above I therefore disagree with the claim that Judaism is collectivists though the Jewish left certainly is. Torah observant Judaism appears to be arguing that true freedom requires responsibility and presenting itself as the optimal way to achieve freedom. That is one of the reasons I find the religion so fascinating.