Quote from: Rampion on April 08, 2013, 10:00:13 AM

Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 09:08:33 AM

Quote from: Rampion on April 08, 2013, 08:13:19 AM

The fact that I never voted in my life could mean that I agree with you. I do not have the guts to vote, it's a too filthy mechanism for me.

Nevertheless, I still think that "working inside the system" can be positive to achieve specific goals that make our day-by-day life better.

You've earned a bit of esteem in my eyes by this... that you refuse even force by proxy as "filthy" speaks well of you. And yes, perhaps a single-issue vote, against a specific measure, might help achieve some goal or another, but as you said, it is a filthy practice, voting, and I consider what few benefits it may offer insufficient to offset the distaste.

I already got a lot of esteem for you - not because we agree on some important points, but because we disagree on some important points and still your debating in an intelligent and civilized way. And you are not making fun of my very poor english Wink

It's always the people with excellent English, for a non-native speaker, that consider their English "poor." You've a better grasp of English grammar and spelling than most native speakers I talk to. Certainly better than my Spanish.

Quote from: Rampion on April 08, 2013, 10:00:13 AM

Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 09:08:33 AM

So we've placed me. But you, and your comrades, have consistently skirted around several issues. I'll settle for you responding to this one:

Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 07:23:01 AM

I'm all for equalizing opportunities. That's why I'm anti-State. But when you try to equalize wealth, you only end up with fail. You'd need to continually steal from the more productive, and give to those less able. Then what are you doing, but trying to compensate for physical or mental inequalities? And eventually, the result is exactly the opposite of your goal. Opportunities are quashed, along with the drive to take them. Why bother, when anything you do to stick out from the crowd will just be cut off and siphoned to those who didn't take the opportunity you did? Meanwhile, the apparatus you've set up to equalize wealth has itself become the most powerful player in the game, and we're back to square one.

Obviously no real anarchist would try to equalize wealth by force. That's why anarchists and communists fighted to death despite the fact that they initially cooperated in the First International. As Rudolph Rocker's said:

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Socialism will either be free, or it won't be at all.

Then I suppose you'll have to forgive me that I believe it won't be at all, outside of relatively small groups. It's just not a suitable system for organizing people above the Dunbar limit. Humans are fine with sharing with people they consider "us." Family, and occasionally friends. That's why it works OK on the Kibbutz or in Aragón, but every time it's been tried on a larger scale, it requires a state to force people to share with strangers. To me, "voluntary socialism" is just as much a contradiction in terms as "Anarcho-capitalist" is to you.

Quote from: Rampion on April 08, 2013, 10:00:13 AM

I personally believe that capitalism and its wild competition, its perpetual growth goal, etc. is profoundly self-destructive. I think that "nature's way" is cooperation. While Darwin was right pointing out that nature is a fight for survival, this does not invalidate the fact that the vast majority of animals and pre-private property societies cooperate in order to survive. Just look at bees, aunts, etc... Kropotkin wrote a wonderful anthropological essay about that.

As per Kropotkin:

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There is an immense amount of warfare and extermination going on amidst various species; there is, at the same time, as much, or perhaps even more, of mutual support, mutual aid, and mutual defense...Sociability is as much a law of nature as mutual struggle.

The defining factor of pre-private-property societies is their size: they are universally much smaller than an average city. Tribal communities had (and still have) no problem sharing amongst themselves, because they all know each other. Dunbar's number again. Bees and Ants, of course, are very poor examples of "anarchist" societies, as they are very hierarchical, and have rigid caste systems. A worker bee is always a worker bee. She can never become a Queen. As well, they destroy anyone who isn't "us."

Quote from: Rampion on April 08, 2013, 10:00:13 AM

Last but not least: I'm also surprised by the US conception of "liberal" as left-wing. While it is true that the first liberals (Enlightenment age free-thinkers) have inspired both left and right wing philosophies, and that they were more "left-wing" oriented in the sense I explained above (position on inequality), the historical truth is that modern liberalist theories were prolifically developed by "lassaiz-faire" supporters of industrial capitalism of the likes of Adam Smith, Locke and more recently Hayek, Mises, etc. Therefore, XIX Century inspired liberalism is pro-capitalist and right-wing. This is commonly accepted in Europe (all right wing parties except fascists call themselves "liberals"), while in US you call liberals left-wing supporters. Quite curious indeed, and with no historical basis IMO.

Eh. Linguistic drift. Words get co-opted all the time here in the US. We're used to it, we just move on to another word. I'd like to see them try to fuck up the meaning of "Voluntaryist," though.

Quote from: herzmeister on April 08, 2013, 02:02:32 PM

I think there are two flavors of anarcho-capitalism.

1) Anarcho-capitalism as a free market ideology.

2) Anarcho-capitalism as the idea and action of counter-economics, with the goal of hollowing out the state, and establishing a more egalitarian society. In this sense, "anarcho" and "capitalism" shouldn't be a contradiction in terms even for lefties.

These are actually the same "flavor." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism