Quote from: miscreanity on March 19, 2017, 07:41:46 PM

There is no free market limit on block size and no fee market, yet miners will enforce the highest level of fees x volume the market will bear? Unless my interpretation of what you stated is mistaken, this appears to be a contradiction.

Miners are the fee market makers, but they are beholden to market forces external to Bitcoin. The free market still determines the limits one way or another, directly or indirectly.

Finally: yes, centralization is still inevitable with either BC or BU.

Well yes there is a natural Invisible Hand outcome (if natural is what you mean by free market), but the fee market will be centrally controlled by a cartel extracting the maximum the market will bear instead of a competitive, decentralized market where demand curve meets supply curve (see @Peter R's video for an excellent visual explanation), thus not a free market in that sense of my interpretation of the meaning of the term free market. But that can't be avoided with Satoshi's PoW design no matter which direction we choose (centralization it is an insoluble attribute of Satoshi's PoW concept because of optimal mining strategies give disproportionate rewards greater than their percentage share to those who have greater share of hashrate and/or faster propagation). The reason everyone is fighting is because PoW has no decentralization future (no matter what we do and it can't be fixed, not even with SegWit). We'll need to find something else other than PoW before we all lose our idealism, but (D)PoS and Byzantine agreement (e.g. Tendermint, Casper, etc) are also centralization. So nobody has a solution to offer (I am not going to promote my work here right now).

So we are in agreement on the outcome, just a different interpretations of the definitions of terms.

Quote from: miscreanity on March 19, 2017, 07:41:46 PM

Quote from: iamnotback on March 19, 2017, 06:39:38 PM

Let's put that to a test right now. I am going to refute you and let's see if the market is paying attention, because miners damn well better be paying attention.

Perhaps you haven't noticed that before I made my shocking math post, the Bitcoin price was declining, since I made my post then the BTC price has risen 5% and miner support for BU has declined. I think the market is paying attention and that is why I am following up with more explanation (when I should be sleeping instead because it is 2:30am where I am and I am on medications).

Bitcoin had a high-volume low on the 18th and broke up through an hourly downtrend on low volume over 9 hours ago. It broke up through a second downtrend only a few hours later, again on low volume. I bought at $988 based on the charts, before reading your BU critique. It was time.

Just because it was time for someone to write the posts I did, doesn't mean that my posts didn't help convince a lot of people who were scared and read this Speculation forum. Others have been writing similar points, but afaik (?) not directly refuting the math of @Peter R and BU's white paper.

I agree it was naturally time and also naturally time for someone like me to be motivated to take their head out of the programming cave sand and say, "hey n00bs, enough is enough on these incorrect technology arguments from Roger Ver, here are the bottomline facts". I mean really Tone Vays is not the best technically qualified person to be matched up against Roger Ver in a debate, nor the best (most succinct, direct to the winning salient point, etc) debater.

Quote from: miscreanity on March 19, 2017, 07:41:46 PM

Additionally, the markets have risen at times when both BC and BU were gaining. They've likewise fallen in a similar manner. While your analysis is important, I am far more inclined to think that forces external to Bitcoin have a much greater weight on price than the BC/BU issue.

I do seem to have an uncanny timing lately eh? (probably just blind luck or am I just by very naturally well in tune with the biorhythm of the community since I have 1% of all posts on these forums?)

Quote from: miscreanity on March 19, 2017, 07:41:46 PM

As for the BC/BU debate generally... due to centralization, I expect Bitcoin to rapidly become a beast of coercion and control instead of the territory of freedom that held for several years. Regardless of technical merit on either side, the actions of "core" have been beyond reprehensible. A doctor with the greatest ability and skill eventually amounts to nothing if his bedside manner is derogatory and dismissive. The core team chose to stand on a platform of abuse and control and that has resulted in market forces ultimately resisting the proposed solution.

From what I see the price is headed higher despite the division, not because one side or the other is gaining. For every person engaged in the debate, there may be a hundred using the system that remain unaware.

Core is simply a manifestation was has to happen in order to motivate what ever comes next.

I happen to believe a solution is coming, but you know I am very biased. I better put my head back in the sand and continue working on what I believe is that solution so it might be ready when it is really absolutely needed.

We'll get 2 Mb soon and hopefully that will give us a little bit of time yet... hopefully creative destruction is underway...

And I agree we can move above $2000 with Core...