Quote from: jonald_fyookball on March 28, 2017, 12:52:54 AM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on March 27, 2017, 10:30:30 PM

Quote from: Holliday on March 27, 2017, 10:09:45 PM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on March 27, 2017, 09:57:29 PM

Quote from: Holliday on March 27, 2017, 09:37:24 PM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on March 27, 2017, 08:10:38 PM

The ~~users~~ free shit army wants fast confirmations and low fees, and they don't give a damn who pays for it, nor do they care if it erodes the very thing that makes Bitcoin uniquely useful, and therefore valuable, in the first place!

FTFY!

Holliday, I respect you, but I think this idea that Bitcoin can be Gold 2.0 without first establishing widespread use is one of the dumbest ideas in the whole debate.
Scarcity alone doesn't provide value. (e.g. Tulip Bulbs)
The security model doesn't work either imo -- kind of like how tax revenues go down when you raise the tax rate, because the base just shrinks.
But hey, we'll see. I've been wrong before.

No, what is stupid is thinking we can just give people whatever they want while ignoring the real costs and resources required to achieve those things.

I'm about as big a Bitcoin "fanatic" as you will find, but Bitcoin will never achieve "widespread" use. I don't know if you interact with "normal" people, but I do on a regular basis, and any time Bitcoin is the discussion, a huge majority of them have no clue what it is, how it works, nor do they ever intend to find out. Most of them are outright hostile to the idea! These people don't even understand how fiat works, which they use every day of their lives! Trying to design monetary freedom around these people is pure folly.

A system where the decentralized model relies on full nodes keeping a record of every transaction since the first simply can't be used by the "mainstream" for "everyday" transactions. I feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall, but I don't understand why you can't grasp this! The sacrifices and trade-offs required to keep Bitcoin transactions cheap and fast forever will ultimately turn it into something completely unrecognizable, and ultimately useless.

I agree 100%.
If Bitcoin can become a widespread currency, it will need to be decades off.
Anything sooner is a delusion created from the hype/pumper groups.
"Rub this bitcoin cream on your skin, it even takes away your wrinkles!!!"

If noobs only want low fees and faster confirmations, they should leave Bitcoin for those scam coins.
That will be the only way for them to learn their lessons. Some people need to touch the hot flame.
They want Bitcoin to become just like the system that Satoshi create Bitcoin to counter.

guys, whether its 5, 10 , 20, or 30 years, the only [way] we're gonna get there is low fees and fast transactions. I guess we're just not on the same page and maybe never will be. And that's fine. The market is going to do what its going to do.

My distinction is that as technology advances over the 5, 10, 20, or 30 years, then we can
scale on-chain and along the way. So, as time goes on, bitcoin will transform from a "gold
storage" to a "currency". We can not be a currency now or anytime soon.

If Satoshi truly intended a decentralized currency, he was 20-50 years too early for mass
amounts of users. Technology has not caught up to Satoshi's vision with large adoption.

I want on-chain scaling, but IMO on-chain scaling now (depending on size) is dangerous.
Would you allow a baby to cross the street by itself? Or do you raise and guide the child
till they learn everything and then they can go and cross the street on their own without
your observation or concern? Point is, that Bitcoin is still a baby, and too much risk could
harm the baby. Over time, as the baby grows and matures, we can safely scale on-chain.

The "bitcoin as gold storage" users are not "holding Bitcoin back", it is technology itself.
I would rather have a decentralized gold now and decentralized currency later, than a
centralized and regulatable currency now.