Quote from: stdset on March 31, 2017, 06:50:19 AM

Quote from: Quickseller on March 31, 2017, 06:35:25 AM

There is also no guarantee that either party will facilitate LN transfers in the futures and be willing to pay/accept what the other party deems to be a reasonable LN fee.

Quote from: stdset on March 31, 2017, 04:13:31 AM

If Bob doesn't offer intermediary services or if he charges incompetitive fee for conducting payments, it's better to open a channel not with Bob, but with a competitive hub and route the payment to Bob through the hub. If Bob's channel capacity with the network isn't enough, he can open another channel with a hub.

Quote from: Quickseller on March 31, 2017, 06:35:25 AM

then you could attempt to broadcast a settlement transaction that is not the most recent, that would result in you receiving more BTC than what you and the dealership have most recently agreed to -- in this situation, the dealership should normally be able recover then entire balance within the channel before you can spend the portion spent to you, however doing so would incur an additional tx fee that the dealership would need to bear in it's entirety in order to claim an amount that they are due anyway....and you are not risking very much/anything when you attempt to steal these funds (at most a nominal amount).

Again, if the dealership doesn't offer LN intermediary services, they can use their respective hubs. Also, if one party tries to cheat and broadcasts an obsolete commitment tx, another party can take all channel funds, that will probably not only cover all necessary fees, but much more. Also, since all parties know, that broadcasting obsolete commitment txes is disadvantageous, they won't even attempt doing so.

1 - if I have a LN channel open with the dealership, and the dealership does not offer intermediary services, then the only use of that LN channel is to transact with that dealership. If the dealership is connected to a LN hub that I am not connected to, then I cannot transaction with that LN hub without the cooperation of the dealership, or I would need to route payments via other means to that LN hub via other cooperating LN channels.

2 - Say for example that you buy a $25,000 car from a local car dealership. You open a LN channel in which you send $25,000 and the dealership sends $0.00, and you subsequently sign transactions changing the balance of the LN channel so that the dealership has $25,000 and you have $0.00 -- now the car is paid for. The following Friday, you get paid by your employer via the LN channel you have open with the car dealership, and you get paid $3,000, now the balance of the LN channel is you have $3,000 and the dealership has $22,000. You subsequently use that same LN channel to pay $1,500 to your landlord, and $1,490 towards your other monthly expenses -- now the LN channel has a balance of $10 for you, and $24,990 for the dealership. If you were to broadcast a closing transaction that resulted in you receiving $3,000, then the dealership would be able to claim the full $25,000 in the LN channel, however the tx fee would likely be greater than $10, so they are loosing money by doing this, and there is the potential that for whatever reason, the dealership does not realize that you broadcast an old closing transaction and/or the dealership is not able to claim the entire balance in the LN channel because of on-chain transaction backlogs, so there is no financial risk to you broadcasting an old transaction, because after tx fees, you would have gotten nothing after the channel is closed anyway.