Quote from: thoughtfan on April 04, 2017, 10:38:19 AM

and I will defend your right to say whatever you want in whichever way you want wherever you want (within reason).

No you will not.

The only way to limit me to your personal definition of "reasonable" free speech is to sew my mouth shut with a needle and thread.

Do not even suggest that free speech requires some arbitrator to decide on what is "reasonable" or "responsible" to define limits to that which is by definition unlimited. You are not responsible for my speech, you are responsible for your own. You will do very well to respect those boundaries, lest you manoeuvre yourself towards defining limits to your concept of "free" speech again

Non-contentious speech has never required protecting. Controversial speech is the only form of speech that needs the principle of free speech for it's protection. Your hypocritical and contradictory attack against the principles of free-speech, which you have cleverly disguised as a defence of free-speech, deserve just as fierce a denigration as Gavin Andresen's conceited attacks on Bitcoin's principles.

Don't do it again

Quote from: thoughtfan on April 04, 2017, 10:38:19 AM

I will also defend my right to request, at least in this thread that we keep things civil and, even if by implication that we drop the ad homs. I won't either apologise for responding to something I find to be unhelpful accordingly - even if I'm wrong and Gavin actually is...... (not that I agree with you).

... I'm trying to draw attention to the fundamental and important distinction between saying something is foolish and calling someone a fool - or worse.

Who is making ad hominem statements? Provide evidence

It's very simple, Gavin Andresen has made several public statements of his views on changing Bitcoin's transaction capacity that were objectively foolish.

That was all I said, and strike me with your "reasonable" free-speech stick if you dislike the way I expressed that fact.

Ad hominem arguments are not arguments at all, there is no component of ad homs that serves as justification for the label used as an ad hominem, it is a non argument that attacks an individual's character, and not the substance of what they are communicating.

I have provided full and reasoned arguments for why Gavin Andresen's arguments are foolish. I did not call the man a fool, he most certainly is not a fool.

Quote from: thoughtfan on April 04, 2017, 10:38:19 AM

I'm not so interested in what's right or wrong at this stage in this context but of what's helpful in having any hope in having this conversation move towards a resolution rather than the community and the demise of the first mover.

If you're not interested in what's right or wrong, and only want a discussion where an agreement is reached, then you inherently misunderstand the debate.

This is not, and never has been, an argument about increasing capacity at a better scale, or about "which blocksize". If you do not understand that at this stage, you are at a disadvantage to make meaningful commentary in your own thread.

Quote from: thoughtfan on April 04, 2017, 10:38:19 AM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on April 04, 2017, 09:38:18 AM

Gavin's original 2015 plan was foolish, but only because he decided to execute the steps in the wrong (i.e. reverse) order.

I can follow that argument, and may agree that, all things considered, he may have been advocating for a sequence that would make more sense otherwise.

However, neither you nor I are privy to all the considerations, circumstances, understanding, even over-riding life paradigm, that Gavin did at the time. I'm happy with 'I disagree' or 'having done as much research and study as I can to understand things to the extent I do, I can see no circumstance in which what Gavin advocated makes sense' - I've made a similar statement in this thread myself about something else.

What mitigating circumstances from Gavin Andresen's life, exterior to the debate, can excuse him from making foolish or dangerous public statements?

Is it not your entire position that personal characteristics are not important, and that the substance of what that person says is all that's pertinent? Except, apparently, when it's convenient for you to argue the antithesis of your ostensible principles

Quote from: thoughtfan on April 04, 2017, 10:38:19 AM

I think going as far as to say 'I'm right' is unhelpful.
Taking it to 'He's wrong' is less helpful.
Taking it to 'he must be stupid, corrupt, etc.' is less helpful.
Taking it to 'he's an absolute *Y(^&^&&**&' is less helpful.
(and not that you said this but just to complete this list)...
Taking it 'this person still has respect for him therefore he / she must also be wrong, stupid, corrupt, an absolute *Y(^&^&&**&' is less helpful still - and it is this last one that appears to be dominating most of the Reddit Bitcoin-related subreddits.

I was hoping for better than that if only in this particular thread. And to be fair, to a significant a large extent I am being rewarded - from yourself included.

What is the purpose of this text?

You are implying you do not speak in respect of a specific person or any specific dialogue in this thread, and yet you feel the need to spend 8 lines talking about no-one in respect of something that didn't happen? All except you are saying this specifically in reply to me? Huh

You are the only person perpetrating ad hominem attacks (and deviously constructed as such), strawman arguments and attacks against free speech in a thread which you created yourself with the expressed (and self-contradicted) purpose to establish a high quality of debate.

There's a word for someone who behaves that way. I don't need to say it, I'm sure people who understand the form of bad faith you are exhibiting have thought of this word themselves long before this point.