Quote from: dinofelis on April 19, 2017, 11:45:38 AM

The point is that treating a transaction has a cost in terms of processing/networking for a miner even though it is small, that cost brings in a small delay that increases this miner's chance to MISS the whole block (another miner being faster) and having wasted all the hash rate on it. So at a certain point, it is better NOT to include a transaction with a small fee, and increase slightly your speed of winning a block, rather than to want to get a small extra fee, and risk somewhat more the loss of the entire block to the competition.

And that, only if blocks are unlimited. If blocks are limited to 1 MB (as it most probably will remain on bitcoin), then of course the room is limited, and only the highest fee transactions will ever be included. This is in my opinion how bitcoin's design (with 1 MB blocks frozen in now) is pushing towards the selling of the scarce resource of transaction room, making this an expensive thing. Every byte on the block chain, being scarce, will be sold at a relatively high price: the fee needed to get your transaction included.
The price of a byte on the chain will come from the need of bitcoin holders to do transactions (they are locked into their bitcoins which are worthless without the possibility to transact) versus the hard scarcity of the block size (1MB) which can even be arbitrarily made smaller by miners spamming the chain (which doesn't cost them anything, because they get back the fee they pay to themselves).

If what you and iamnotback is right, that we non-whales will all be forced out of the blockchain, then too bad. Tough luck, huh? You better start selling your bitcoin because it ain't good enough vs Monero, etc. Better still, be a miner and go hand pick those transactions that pays the highest fee. But I am optimistic things will work out my way. My way is that both the whales and the non-whales will be transacting in the SAME blockchain each paying reasonable fee relative to their transaction value.

If the miners have sole power to influence the fee, then even the whales (forget the non-whales that iamnotback said will be forced out of the blockchain) will be forced to pay higher and even higher fee and compete among themselves to get confirmed to the point of total breakdown in the bitcoin economy. That's a very lousy game theory, I say.

A dialogue:
Whale 1: Since the non-whales are all gone now, I pay 0.001% for my transaction.
Whale 2: Not so fast, baby. I am paying 0.01%. Process mine first.
Whale 3: Nope, I am paying 0.1%.
Whale 4: Fuck you all, I am paying 1%.
Whale 5: Lolol..... I pay 10%, hah!
Whale 6: Get the fuck out of here, guys. I am paying 100%.

Anyone still subscribing to imminent high fee does not really understand game theory.

Of course they will. The 10 jet purchases are slightly faster to process into a block and propagate, than the 1000 bikes, so you ever so slightly reduce your chances to win the bike block against the jet block.

People these days are so backward and retarded in thinking that they have no problem wasting hours of time doing useless things like watching cheap B-rated movies, doing idle chatting, etc etc every single fucking day for the rest of their lives, but have super massive terminal + critical + problem + challenge + pressure + tension issue on fast transactions with a difference of just some few seconds or minutes.

If each block gives similar fee, the miner will not cherry pick. Give yourself a break. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Well, if you think that by doing so, you will rise the price of a bitcoin to $2,-, then you can already do some travelling. But if you can get enthusiasts doing so on the internet, creating a buzz, that's even much better and it costs you less. Libertarians are an easy crowd to get going (I know, I'm part of them).

What prompted you be part of the buzz? Was it back in 2009/2010 or few years after it got very popular? It makes a huge difference.
If you started in 2009/2010 independently on your own initiative, then you are a TRUE libertarian. Otherwise, if you wait until almost everything is in place then you are just a SHEEP like every other. I suspect you did not talk about bitcoin in 2009, or 2010, or 2011. I suspect you were waiting for signs that bitcoin is really a good thing and that it will last before you jump right in.

Who did so ?

Andreas Antonopoulos. By right, you should be familiar with him that you do not even need to ask this stupid question.

Yes. There's no such thing as merit, or the intelligence of success. Success and power is a matter of luck. The only "merit" there is, is to recognize the opportunity (which, in itself, is a random phenomenon, the fact that you "recognize it"). Power and success are the result of pure lottery. But people in power like to think that they are special, have a gift, and have the intelligence. They don't. It is a pure lottery. This is why they are not capable to do something intelligent with their power.

The shadow elite planned for bitcoin at least back in 1988, publicly. Luck is for the sheep. The shadow elite creates their own reality through thought power.

Well, there were some believers. There are always believers. But these believers were worth gold, because they were naive, motivated, somewhat greedy, starry-eyed, and could make the message pass that they were going to change the world for the better. The analogy with the internet, remember. They succeeded in creating a buzz, and the time was ripe. The MtGox guy, Karpeles, sleazy business type on the outlook of easy money, saw the opportunity. That's all there is to it.

Your world is very simplistic. I wish there is really such a world.

The window of opportunity to rule the world with bitcoin is closing. No 'dark forces' wait 8 years to get their thing going, when it starts to show cracks.

Oh, really? Closing eh? They shouldn't be waiting for 8 years eh? They should have announce it right away and force immediate adoption eh?

Occam's razor. If you don't need a master plan, and can explain a phenomenon without it, it is better than to have to think up an inconsistently sounding evil master plan that was too hard to foresee back then, that took too long, and that had too much power on one side, and too many backlashes on the other in order to be coherent.

I don't need a master plan, as the ingredients: naive idealism and greed, are sufficient to explain where we are today.

Simple people don't need any master plan. And when things happen, they always never see it coming. You have naive idealism too.

I don't know how crypto will evolve. I think the bubble will burst at a certain moment, but niche applications will remain. My personal impression is that bitcoin's absolute reign is coming to an end, and that in the next few years, its first mover advantage will have been consumed. The scammy coins in line to succeed illustrate the medium future of crypto, in the line of its evolution during the last years: away from "real world economy" and more and more centered on gambling and trading. I think block chains have shown their limits, and at the same time, their use in certain applications. What crypto turned out not to be, is "money on the internet", except for niche applications, such as dark markets.

Bitcoin will last.

Hey, dinofelis. There is no need to argue over this.
If you think you are right, sure.
I am okay with that.
I am sick and tired of trying to prove others being wrong, and I am sure you feel the same way too.