Quote from: minifrij on May 13, 2017, 03:51:24 PM

Quote from: the_end_is_near on May 13, 2017, 09:46:36 AM

Apparently most users are using the default trust list, because trust is not related to anything they would actively need to configure for their priority use cases.

This is a difficult case to solve. Older members complain that the Default Trust system is flawed (which it is to a degree), but if this trust system was removed then newer members would likely complain that there was nothing in place to stop them getting scammed. theymos did want to replace this system, however this replacement system had the downfall of requiring newbies to choose members that they have never interacted with to trust.

Quote from: the_end_is_near on May 13, 2017, 09:46:36 AM

Thus as I said, a centralized GUI presentation of the trust as red text on @kiklos avatar on all his posts in the Altcoin Discussion retroactively into the past.

I can agree on this somewhat, however it's arguably useless to try and implement for the use that it would get.

There are some quick and easy solutions available.

1. This site is first and foremost a forum and not a site for doing trade deals between individuals (or at least many users join with that perspective). On localbitcoins, I see a trust rating by default, because trading is the primary function of that site and there is no forum. The most egregious flaw is the putting red text on the avatar of the forum identity (apparently only in some sub-forums such as Altcoin Discussion) accusing of being a scammer. This then affects all the forum activity (even retroactively to all historic posts!) which has nothing to do with trades. For example, myself and others have had their past accounts hacked (accounts where I had scrambled the password), then our archive of posts now has bullshit red text on them even though that has nothing do with the activity when I was posting using those account. One of my angel investors has red text all over his past posts because that account got hacked (he quit the forum since that because it is a clusterfuck of waste). It is the conflation of these two activities (forum posting and trading) which is such an egregious clusterfuck. Thus there is no reason to have that red text there. Anyone who does a trade without checking the Trust system for the user who they are trading with, thus has no awareness of the Trust system and thus thinks BCT is only a forum. The forum is not liable, because the Trust system is available and is documented. Remove that damn red text for those who are using the default trust list!

2. Show the trust list blatantly on the Trust page. The Trust settings link is not conspicuous enough and clicking it gives no clue what the Default trust is about or even how to use it.

Quote from: minifrij on May 13, 2017, 03:51:24 PM

Quote from: the_end_is_near on May 13, 2017, 09:46:36 AM

Incorrect. Because afaik we start with a default list and have to proactively go edit out and nearly no one knows that.

The de facto trust list is centralized.

Admittedly it could be easier to find, but there is a fair amount of documentation available to anyone interested in the trust system outlining what it is and how it can be used. It's a problem with the users that they do not care to find or read it.

Never is the problem the fault of the users. Until you accept this reality, you will never be a world class software developer. Never blame the users. Those who are offended by my expertise oh well

Quote from: minifrij on May 13, 2017, 03:51:24 PM

Quote from: the_end_is_near on May 13, 2017, 09:46:36 AM

Four wrongs do not make it right, rather it is a clusterfuck.

1. Centralized de facto trust list for most users.
2. @Lauda knows this thus can abuse @kiklo.
3. @kiklo is told to accept this abuse, so he lashes out.
4. You guys have the wrong of blaming the clusterfuck on @kiklo accusing him of being a hypocrite.

3. kiklo was told exactly how to go about trying to change the trust left by Lauda,

And I think he was 100% correct to not waste his time on a broken piece-of-shit design. Why should he beg to @Lauda? Lauda should never have this power to put red text all over his forum avatar.

Quote from: minifrij on May 13, 2017, 03:51:24 PM

It is not the fault of the system, nor the people of the forum that kiklo decided to disregard that advice and throw his toys out his cot.

It is the faulty design of the system. And @kiklo was pointing out to the other users how arbitrary the system is and how the fault can waste their time too. Because the nature of collectivized clusterfucks (i.e. tragedy-of-the-commons) is that no one cares until they are affected:

Quote

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for meand there was no one left to speak for me.

Quote from: minifrij on May 13, 2017, 03:51:24 PM

4. Complaining that a user that you have never traded with has left you negative trust, then leaving negative trust to people you have never traded with makes you a hypocrite. Complaining about defamation of your character, then going to to defame the characters of people not involved makes you a hypocrite.

That is aliasing error akin to looking up at a stopped clock at 6am and 6pm and concluding the clock is functioning properly.

If you just looked at his action as a point sample then yes you could argue that, but taken holistically, then clearly @kiklo was trying to inform others how the system could harm them arbitrary.

Being part of the groupthink, you slander his motives while protecting your collectivist system. Rather than looking objectively at the problem holistically.

Quote from: minifrij on May 13, 2017, 03:51:24 PM

Quote from: the_end_is_near on May 13, 2017, 09:46:36 AM

Cover your right eye with a patch and try to function (I was blinded in my right eye in 1999). Consume enough rat poison each day to not kill you but to be so sick that you can not think clearly, have a failing liver, have delirum, headaches and barely enough energy to get out of bed. Remove all your finances and all the people who could help you, so that you are forced to work in this condition. Welcome to my life the past years. Until youve actually experienced this, then you can not comprehend the reality of it. Even words do not describe what it feels like day after day after day for years, with no respite.

And the fact that you can come here and have a sensible conversation with me about these problems, even after all of the things that you have suffered through, gives kiklo no excuse to act like a child about it. Do you not agree?

I am coming cured from TB and so am having some lucid days (also still some bad days), so I have always tried to not let my illness impact my rationality and perspective, but the fact it that it did many times. And there was not a damn thing I could do about it, even though I tried everything I could to overcome (before I was diagnosed with TB so I did not know about any curative medicine for some years). Physical suffering is physical suffering and even the mind is impacted. You will never understand this until you are chronically ill with a condition that persistently painful or delirious. I was very strong before I got ill with TB, so I also was cavalier and incompassionate as you are (well maybe not totally but I did not have the understanding of chronic illness that I have now). So I do not entirely blame you. I had even asked my (now ex-) wife and others close to me to wear a patch on their eye for a day to know my new life after I was blinded. They all tried it for 15 seconds and refused to do it. Lack of compassion and selfishness is a human nature. Jesus spent his time among the afflicted and suffered immensely. It is something I also tried, but I admit it is horrible.

Eventually I will blog about perhaps we can leave this physical dimension and move onto the informational plane of existence. Yet I think we will also miss this physical existence?

In short, I do not blame you for your perspective. I am informing you about another perspective.

Quote from: minifrij on May 13, 2017, 03:51:24 PM

Quote from: the_end_is_near on May 13, 2017, 09:46:36 AM

My generation X had to fight for everything (not spoiled, not sheltered)

And due to certain circumstances in my life, I do not believe that I fit either of those descriptions.

Okay I understand the world is diverse and we can not absolutely stereotype. And I will cheer any youth that I find to be interesting and valuable. Yet we perhaps draw some generalizing trends between generations, but of course I hope I can relate to all age groups, because diversity makes life interesting. I am skeptical (because I am so skeptical of anything the boomers and collectivism/socialism created, although I recognize every stage of human development is a prerequisite to the next one) but also I do have some friends in all age groups.

Quote from: minifrij on May 13, 2017, 03:51:24 PM

I give respect to people that give respect to others. kiklo has shown through is mass amount of threads, negative feedback spam and threats of legal action that he is incapable of giving respect to others. Therefore, I see no reason to give respect to him.

@kiklo and I also butted heads in forum discussion in the past. He is a feisty or obstinate one (and I am too but I do not put blue text in all my replies when I am agitated). I joked with @kiklo in a PM that I can only imagine what he was like as a teenager if he has this much fight in him at age 84, lol. But it is not my nor @Laudas value to decide for everyone else. We need a decentralized moderation system so that we have a more accurate appraisal of the value of the posting to a wide diversity of readers.

And so then if @kiklo finds he is Ignored every where, he will realize it is his fault and can not blame any centralized moderators. I am not assuming he would be. He has his style and he did point out some technical details sometimes. IMO, he was not a worthless poster.

@kiklo was angry because he is/was marketing his altcoin here and the red text on his avatar slandered all his Altcoin Discussion posts. I think this was justifiable and actually he could perhaps justify a lawsuit but these things are difficult to win especially he voluntarily participated in the system. Nevertheless, the system remains broken. Somebody even posted here in Meta, belittling his altcoin as if he is not justified to have that as an economic reason to be angry about the abuse.

Quote from: minifrij on May 14, 2017, 01:26:59 AM

I couldn't care about what kiklo does providing he does it in a decent manner. However, he isn't.

Political correctness is a trait that I vehemently hate.

I rather like diversity and indecent behavior when justifiable. Makes life more interesting.

"Give me liberty, or give me death!" Patrick Henry

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure." Thomas Jefferson