Quote from: PuertoLibre on April 30, 2013, 07:43:53 PM

David, you are a well balanced (very objective) individual beyond reproach. So I will answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Quote from: davidspitzer on April 30, 2013, 07:01:41 PM

Quote from: PuertoLibre on April 30, 2013, 06:46:09 PM

Quote from: davidspitzer on April 30, 2013, 06:43:50 PM

Quote from: Syke on April 30, 2013, 06:31:32 PM

Quote from: davidspitzer on April 30, 2013, 06:17:31 PM

Just an observation:

I have taken interest in reading through the threads popping up from people who have received at the ASIC 5 gig miner (the artist previously known as Jalapeno). In almost everyone of the threads the same small contingent of users have substantively hijacked the thread in what appears to be an attempt to proselytize others to their dislike (hate) of all things butterfly labs. If they are preorder customers why have they not gotten a refund and moved on with their life and if not customers what is the motivation behind the seemingly relentless posts regarding BFL? I find the time and energy spent fascinating and I am curious to the underlying motivations. Can any of the ministers of the Church of BFL haters shed any light on their compulsion? I do not intend to debate your position, it is well know and established. I am merely curious of its origins of the sentiment and the gusto to which you apply it.

Blame Josh. He's the BFL representative that's stoking the fire anytime he can. He thinks it brings him more business.

I have seen Josh aggressively respond to negative comments, but I do not recall him instigating them. Regardless of Josh's response to said comments I still have not heard the underlying reasons for people posting them. What result are they seeking and what benefit does it bring the poster.

For example - I read posts and respond or post my own questions to expend my understanding on a subject or sometimes I post a, what I think is, a funny reply for entertainment purposes. In the first instance I seek to gain knowledge and in the second I seek enhance online relationships, which can then be leveraged later for more knowledge or other types of relationships both professional and personal.

I have also sometimes defended or clarified a position when I feel someone has misinterpreted something I have said, like now.

Ultimately I am trying to figure out what benefit the vocal minority derives from their posts. It may be they simply like the controversy and enjoy conflict, but I would not assume something so base without first asking; which is what I am doing.

Check into nagnag's posts. The man was not aggressive and simply wanted a refund. How then did Inaba respond to him?

Called him a liar and then thrust many....hurtful....statements towards him. Go check and be informed. There are no excuses for verbally abusing your customers.

Inaba has done this several times, some with small pre-orders, some with substantial pre-orders.

Fair enough - I will go check it out. If I may ask, since you responded, what is your personal motivation? Are you presently or have you ever been a BFL customer and if so what has moved you to such a passionate position?

Conflicted interests is the easiest way to sum it all up.

If BFL fails to deliver, they will likely take a large number of people with them. There is an advantage to that happening since I am probably only 1 of 70 individuals holding on to an ASIC. Though at the same time, I do not see anything positive from people getting "hung to dry" by a company that over promises and under-delivers.

That is one side of the equation.

The other side of the equation: I don't have any strict loyalty to any vendor. I will go with whomever has proven themselves. Avalon was my choice due to their "All in one" unit design and Inabas inab-ility to control himself with the community. Like every BFL customer I had to look "the other way" when I saw things that made me worry about Avalon and their delivery schedule. No one likes to lose cash. I didn't have any failsafe in my payment method (Wire Transfer with actual hard earned cash). I didn't borrow from anyone, not even my CC company. I even started a DEFCON chart when my doubts were expressed about Avalon's delivery schedule.

BFL simply failed to deliver. They made promises lightly and always failed. They never seemed (nor were in my opinion) sincere with their customers. To this day 99.99% of those that have ordered have received nothing. Both a good and a bad thing for me. BFL does not seem to be intent on competing with Avalon so that depreciates their attractiveness (as a buyer).

Quote from: davidspitzer on April 30, 2013, 07:01:41 PM

What is your goal by your numerous posts? Is it personal, is your goal to sway others away from BFL.

It is a mixed bag. I am not sure there is a strategy as much as frustration.

On the one hand, I want a competitor to drive down prices. IF BFL succeeds then I have a second option. If they don't then they take a heck of a lot of customers with them and keeps ASICs in the hands of about 70 people. (well not counting ASIC miner or the batch 2 yet to be delivered by Avalon)

Keeping people away from BFL sounds sensible since the facts of their non-delivery, their attitude, their deceptive practices, their carrot wagging....pretty much makes it hard to stomach the idea of thousands of people losing money. At each step there is always something to criticize. Member "Scared" for example is one of those rare "customers" to have received a unit. Yet, he gives an order number that is seemingly impossible to be an actual order number. It is seems to be an order number that is before the pre-order queue even started. (Edit: See above for an update from Inaba on "Scared"'s order number.)

So right there, more fishy stuff. As well as the Head Customer Service agent at BFL using strange wording for how many units were going out. For example, in a blog post they said (paraphrased lightly) "We have shipped less than 12 today".

Does that mean 1? 2? 11?

Tactics like these are commonplace with BFL. Frustrating that they accept such scammy methods of propping up a badly run business. (IMO) You could basically read that statement in any way. It might be many units shipped out. Or it could be 0. Who knows? Jody's intent is much like Inaba's...to "look good" without actual substance.

As far as I can see, it's all shady promotion and plays on words. In fact, after this issue @ BFL forums, Jody has stopped putting out how many are going out. I guess that "one trick wonder" won't work a second time.

Quote from: davidspitzer on April 30, 2013, 07:01:41 PM

It seems to me that at this point and time, people have arrived at their own opinion, after much consideration, regarding BFL. It does not seem that the extended conversations have substantively changed peoples minds one way or the other. Given this, what is it that fuels the energy and frequency of your posts and what do you hope to accomplish by them?

Many newbies, (not the BFL shills or employees probably pretending to be newbies), simply do not know.

They are walking in...eyes wide shut. They don't know. Just read through this thread and you'll see many of the newcomers don't know the back story. And if you read and take Inaba's positions seriously, he intentionally leads them to believe we are spouting non-sense. It is only when newbies read and inform themselves that they become immune to the BS.

People simply do not know. To those that are well worn on the topic, they are well versed in the antics that composes BFL.

Quote from: davidspitzer on April 30, 2013, 07:01:41 PM

I believe that their comes a point in time, even if one is correct, that the frequency, aggressiveness and repetitive nature of their messages serves to actually detract from the message they are trying to convey. I am confident that there is absolutely no one on this board that has any doubt of your opinion regarding BFL. Is there any utility in your continued efforts, or are you now simply harming your own reputation and goodwill at this point? I would offer the same observation to you antithesis. If someone posted hundreds of messages that only extolled how great BFL is I would suggest it would be time to move on also.

I do believe there are lots of people who do not know. New people. They are walking into it without knowing any better.

I am probably (and have) harmed my own reputation. The other option is to remain silent while a largely defunct company profits from it. I just want cheaper miners. I don't really care if BFL succeeds or fails. I do care though that they are doing it on the backs of newbies and huge Advertising budgets to those that don't know.

If you throw a big enough net, you'll eventually catch enough suckers to keep any sordid operation going.

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The whole solution to this problem is knowing the actual state of things at BFL. As of a month ago BFL stopped telling anyone what was actually happening.

So for all we know, their few orders going out are simply prototype to stave off the claims at Paypal. (check the blogs at BFL forums)

Or

It could be the start of their actual shipping cycle. Which do you prefer to believe? So far the order numbers people are giving are incongruent with normalcy.

Is it a sham or a start? We shall soon know.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I will keep both my eyes and mind open. I really appreciate the time you took to explain your position. I hope everything works out beneficially for all