Quote from: Astargath on July 11, 2017, 05:52:01 PM

Quote from: BADecker on July 11, 2017, 05:20:09 PM

Quote from: Astargath on July 11, 2017, 01:51:29 PM

Quote from: CoinCube on July 11, 2017, 01:38:06 PM

Quote from: Astargath on July 11, 2017, 12:05:34 PM

You could argue that with any other religious book or just philosophy in general. A lot of philosophers already presented arguments for the creation of the universe, life and many other problems. That doesn't mean anything. And badecker says that god allows all science to happen. The god from the bible? Or the one from islam? Or maybe is the one from the other thousands of religions, which one is it?

This topic is indeed deeply related to philosophy and metaphysics. Metaphysics are fundamental assumptions. One must choose ones metaphysics.

Philosophy is the formal study of such choices and their logical outcomes. Dismissing metaphysics as not meaning anything or having any revelance because individuals can choose competing or even self contradictory metaphysics is similar error to dismissing science because some scientific theories compete or are false.

Grounding reality in an infinite creator leads to the conclusion that there is only one God. The fact that there are different beliefs regarding God (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc) tells us that human understanding of our infinite creator is unsurprisingly limited.

Grounding reality in an infinite creator also leads to the conclusion that all of reality flows ultimately from the will of said creator including the order upon which we build science.

Metaphysics are chosen but they are not arbitrary. The following quotes highlight this well.

Fix your life? Fix your metaphysics
http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2016/06/fix-your-life-fix-your-metaphysics.html?m=1

Quote from: Bruce Charlton

Metaphysics are your fundamental assumptions. These are chosen: they were chosen by you (although you probably weren't aware of choosing them, but just passively accepted them).

Fundamental assumptions are chosen - but they are not arbitrary; because the assumptions have consequences. You can choose whatever you want to believe - but sometimes you will not be able to make yourself live-by these chosen beliefs; and other times you will live by them (including thinking by them) such that they lead to nonsensical and therefore self-refuting outcomes.

The trouble is that in a world where people have stopped thinking- and when their assumptions lead to incoherent, nonsensical conclusions, instead of sorting-out their metaphysics - they just stop thinking (easier to do than ever before in human history - due to the ubiquity of mass media and social media).

Anyway - my point is that if you have certain (very common) assumptions, then you will either have a nihilistic, hope-less and despairing world view --- or else you will have to stop yourself thinking about anything serious.

There are innumerable commonly-held assumptions that lead to this: that Man has no free will, that the world is either random and unpredictable or else rigidly predetermined, that nothing exists except what has been described by 'science', that morality is a matter of opinion, that beauty is wholly in the eye of the beholder... oh, there are dozens of such.

Indeed, most of people's primary assumptions nowadays are of a type that lead to nonsensical or incoherent conclusions - so it is futile to complain about the low standard of rational public debate when rational debate is only possible on the basis that people are able and willing to examine and revise their assumptions when they lead to absurd outcomes.

Because perhaps the most absurd modern metaphysical assumption of all is that metaphysics is meaningless and all decisions should be made on the basis of 'evidence'!

Whereas (as quickly becomes apparent in any disagreement) unless there is agreement on metaphysical assumptions then the cannot even be agreement on what counts as evidence, leave aside the matter of evaluating the strength of evidence...

Why fix your metaphysics - negative and positive reasons
http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2016/02/why-fix-your-metaphysics-negative-and.html?m=1

Quote from: Bruce Charlton

The thing we must recognize about metaphysics, is that the metaphysical framework is neither validated nor contradicted by experience. That modern metaphysical assumptions are not the consequence of knowledge, or science, or logic. That traditional or religious metaphysics have never been refuted nor disproved.

We can choose to change are metaphysics, and (by repetition and self-monitoring) work to make the new metaphysics a spontaneous habit.

Is metaphysics then all just a matter of arbitrary opinion? Well, it can be but it need not be.

1. We can examine our metaphysical assumptions to see whether they are internally consistent and coherent.

2. We can trace the provenance, i.e. the origin, of the metaphysics we currently hold-to and see whether we regard that source as good, reliable, trustworthy (for example, if the metaphysics comes from people whose motives or character we regard as bad, then there is a good reason not to accept their metaphysics).

3. We can explore and compare the consequences of different metaphysical systems and evaluate which we think is the most Good: that is, the most true, beautiful and virtuous.

In other words, we can approach metaphysics with the conviction that some systems are better than others, and deploy our deepest and most fundamental mode of evaluation to compare systems and choose that which is best; and choose to try and live by it.

This doesn't really contradict my point, which is that religion itself is useless. Philosophy is not religion. The teachings from the bible are mostly ok but there are also a few atrocious ones. Like rape and slavery. Humans know those things are bad because we are able to determine whether something is morally good or not thanks to logic. We do not need the bible to teach us about morals.

The commandment from the Ten that says, "Thou shalt not kill," means murder. The old English is a bad interpretation for us. If you harm someone in almost any way, you cause some of his cells to die. You murder them. That includes rape and slavery. The Bible is against both.

God is against killing a baby, even an unborn one. Exodus 21:22...:

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If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the womans husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Regarding rape. If a man rapes a woman not promised to another man, he has to marry the woman to save the child produced by the rape. Why? To give the child a proper home between one man and one woman. The man is fined, however, the fine being kept as protection money for the woman and child if the man fails to do his duty.

If a man rapes a woman who is pledged to another man (essentially married though they have not come together), the man is to be executed. The woman's "husband" will bring up the child if there is one.

Slavery is a protection for the one enslaved. In the 7th year of enslavement, if not sooner, the slave is to be set free. If we had the form of slavery as listed in the book of Exodus, the poverty stricken people of our nation could find a job, even if it paid very little. At least they and their families would have food and shelter.

However, making slaves is punishable by death. Exodus 21:16:

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Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper's possession.

In addition to the above, we need to understand that the whole mentality of the peoples of that day and age were different than ours. As is happening right now throughout the Middle East, a woman is far lower than a man in value. Rape is a fight between men. The woman doesn't have enough standing to be part of the fight except as the property. It might not seem fair, but it is their way of life. Even the women know it no other way.

Slavery is similar. Slavery is a contest between owners. The slave has little or no say. And, the slaves are totally in agreement with it this way. It is their way of life. Even though their formal Governments have laws against slavery, they do so only to look good in the eyes of us Westerners who loathe such things.

You are totally wrong about your understanding of rape and slavery in the Bible.

Cool

'' If a man rapes a woman not promised to another man, he has to marry the woman to save the child produced by the rape.'' So you can rape a woman freely and your only ''punishment'' is that you have to marry her.

''Slavery is a protection for the one enslaved. In the 7th year of enslavement, if not sooner, the slave is to be set free. '' Oh thanks god, he can be set free after 7 years, thankfully god took care of the slave needs.

Surely the mentality of people were different but God which does not change should have gave them moral absolute rules.

These are the rules God imposed:
Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave,[a] he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free, 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

So basically if you give your slave a woman, you can enslave them forever. God just created a loophole to be able to enslave people forever, what a great mind this god has.

''Whoever curses[c] his father or his mother shall be put to death'' So now if you curse your parents you have to die but it's totally fine to have slaves. Seems perfectly logical.

''When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.'' ( Huh

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Do people take this shit seriously?

As long as you are not going to look at the good sense in the biblical laws, you are always going to be grumpy. You are like Scrooge regarding Christmas. You would rather find a particle of bad than look at the great good. You are like the Pharisees, who strained out the gnat, but swallowed the camel.

The laws of the OT were built for a people that lived like this, and worse. These laws brought those people up out of a form of life-bondage into freedom. They aren't for us in our lives today. And, as I said, the living rules are still like this in the ME today.

Are you trying to adapt your rules and laws to the ME peoples? Are you trying to take their freedom away so you can enslave them with the thing that you think is freedom?

Buddy, you have a long way to go in life, to even understand yourself when you think and talk like this.

Cool