Quote from: Hawker on May 28, 2013, 09:01:29 PM

Quote from: MoonShadow on May 28, 2013, 08:58:37 PM

Quote from: Hawker on May 28, 2013, 08:46:03 PM

Quote from: MoonShadow on May 28, 2013, 08:42:51 PM

Quote from: Hawker on May 28, 2013, 08:29:37 PM

The question was what causes societies to move towards being more voluntary. You may think that eternal vigilence caused it but that doesn't change the fact that it seemed to emerge in the 1600s and that it wasn't there in the 1500s.I'm going to stick with "No-one knows."

That's not at all true. Go back and read this thread, there are definable examples to at least 1291 (the foundation of the old Swiss Confederacy, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Swiss_Confederacy#Foundation) and some credible, yet undocumentable, examples of same that go back much farther. Do you contest that the Swiss Confederacy was founded upon ideals that would be consistant with a modern sentiment of a "voluntary" society? Bear in mind, that the foundation 'myth' (can't be supported with any historical documents) of the old Swiss Confederacy is the story of William Tell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apple_and_the_Arrow) leading an uprising against a tyranical & absolute monarch, and that the 'Founding Fathers' of the United States appealed to the Swiss for financial support during the Revolutionary War because they believed they would find ideological like minds.

They did, and some rather wealthy ones as well.

True. But I did precede by saying I was talking about the political culture of the UK, Ireland and the US, all of whom are greatly influenced by the Bill of Rights which followed the civil war.

Which, in turn, was greatly influenced by the old Swiss Confederacy, as well as the Five Tribes Confederation. (http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/) I'm sure that you are used to being the smartest guy in the room, but you would be wise to not present your viewpoints with such confidence lacking support. There is much that certain members of this strange forum in this little backwater of the Internet will teach you if prompted. How they are prompted will determine if those lessons come soft or hard.

Are we talking about the same bill of rights? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689

Opps! I just got caught with my own pants down. You were referring to the English bill of rights!

Well, even then those idesa din't just spring up suddenly, they were largely deveopled over generations alongside common law, which itself developed due to a general lack of interest or interference from the monarch or the noble class.