Quote from: ktttn on June 02, 2013, 01:20:05 PM

Quote from: blablahblah on June 02, 2013, 10:10:53 AM

Quote from: ktttn on June 01, 2013, 11:44:59 PM

Quote from: blablahblah on June 01, 2013, 07:26:30 PM

And all that for what? So you can avoid confronting the truth that there's no such thing as "true freedom"?
Hahahaha! Cheesy

The only meaning of freedom I'm willing to accept is one that does not need to mention the forces that cancel it, a meaning that stands alone. A positive meaning that explains what it is as opposed to what it isn't.

Wow, that's going to be a tough one. I guess that might be touching upon the realm of metaphysics where the subjective experience of freedom would be a quale. Even though you might feel/sense/taste it, you could never really explain it to anyone -- successful explanations would just be an illusion, like successfully explaining what 'red' is to an alien. Even if the alien says "ah, yes, now I understand what red is", it's still just guesswork that your 'red' doesn't look green/blue/purple to them.

What I was getting at earlier was that all this 'freedom' talk is like comparing the floor area or "niceness" of a prison built within a prison. Even if the prisoners break the walls down, they're still all stuck in a bigger prison! (Whether it's Pitcairn Island, or planet Earth...) It seems that some people really, really want to avoid facing this fact and insist on some holy grail of true freedom. Wink

If you can take a step back and laugh at the absurdity of it all, then I guess that would make you a lot freer than some people.

+1

I've read this topic with interest, it has been a wide ranging discussion and at times a bit cantankerous.
The original question, posed in this forum, has always struck me at a bit of a gadfly. Out of place, but worthy as a question nonetheless, even though the answer might be plain and simple.

One might as well inquire why there are no bitcoins in history to question that bitcoins can not succeed.
If we only look to history for our plans for innovation, we will have precious little of it.
Social systems arise through will, through agreement, and through force.
We have new mechanisms for attaining agreement that didn't exist even one generation ago.
None of our parents met on the internet dating sites.
We are changing in ways, as a society, rapidly. Be ready or be left behind.