Quote from: hexed on June 06, 2013, 10:34:59 PM

Oh man.. you really do have a comprehension problem don't you. Once again you don't read the posts you respond to, and your responses are circumnavigating the actual topic. Let me deconstruct your BS.

*Yawn* More ad hominem...

Quote from: wrenchmonkey on June 06, 2013, 05:51:17 AM

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Everything you buy is an "Investment" that doesn't make you an investor in a company. It makes you an investor in a PRODUCT. Big difference. You're still a customer, unless you have an investment in the company. Learn the difference. It will make this easier for you. If I buy a fleet of Chevy trucks, and use them to make money, I'm not a "Chevy investor", I'm a Chevy customer. Nobody would argue that a fleet of trucks is not an "investment," but nobody would take seriously the assertion that I'm an "investor" in The General Motors Corporation. If I want to be a GM/Chevy investor, I buy STOCK, not their products.

What if I buy a fleet of bulldozers from Caterpillar? Still not an "investor"

No.. everything you buy is not an investment. Maybe you need to scroll up to the DEFINITION YOU QUOTED. If I buy a Apple Ipad, Sony Receiver, banana, I am not investing anything. I am consuming.

A banana is an "investment" in your survival, an iPad and sony receiver are "investments" in your own entertainment. When you spend money on those products, your intent is that you gain something from them. You gain a long-term entertainment option. Having a nice home theater can save you money on movie tickets, blah, blah, blah. By THAT standard, everything you purchase can be considered an "investment". Going to the grocery store is even an "investment" of time. If you want to play fast and loose with terms, so be it. But you can't eat your cake and have it still. Investment in goods is still an investment, whether it's BFL mining equipment, or a new car, you're STILL not an "investor" in that company. You're a customer/consumer.

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Then you go on to talking about Chevy/GM which is a publically traded company and in true wrenchmonkey fashion, you are comparing apples to oranges.

The point is perfectly valid. The fact that it's publicly traded means that you CAN be an investor. You want an apples-to-apples comparison of your "investment" in a company that's not even traded publicly? You were never offered a share in the company, you're neither a public investor or a private investor in BFL. That's the whole fucking point.

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Bulldozers aren't a "typical consumer product" either. I'm still not a Caterpillar investor.

Once again, even though it goes through one ear and out the other.. You buying a product is not an investment. You bought a product to use.

No shit, you bought the product "to use". Find me a person who buys a bulldozer as a recreational vehicle. They're purchased for making money. Interestingly enough, they're often used IN THE MINING INDUSTRY. You wanted an apples-to-apples comparison? HERE IT FUCKING IS! Mining equipment!

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If you use the product to make money for a construction company, that purchase of bulldozers is an investment into YOUR company, not caterpillar.

*DING DING DING DING DING!* I feel like you're SO CLOSE to FINALLY getting it. Bulldozers (and bitcoin mining equipment) are investments in YOUR COMPANY (or unregistered black/grey-market mining business) not Caterpillar or BFL. You're investing in yourself when you buy such equipment, not in the company you're buying from. Mining equipment is mining equipment. Ergo, by your own fucking admission, YOU ARE NOT A BFL INVESTOR any more than a gold miner is a Caterpillar investor, when he buys Caterpillar products for HIS mining ventures. You're both just customers of the respective companies. No more, no less.

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Exactly, they are an investment (just like EVERYTHING you buy). That doesn't make you a BFL investor. In your Billy Bass example you made an investment in the Billy Bass fish. You are not one of Amazon's investors. You're one of Amazon's CUSTOMERS. Get it? If you complained to somebody that you weren't being treated fairly as an "Amazon investor" because they delayed sending you your limited edition singing fish, you'd be laughed out of town.

No, everything you buy is not an investment.. once again. Just saying it over and over again so maybe you get it one day. I also said nothing about Amazon, don't know where that came from. You also failed to read once again, the billy bass comment was regarding an investment of a rare item, that can be saved and resold. As I had mentioned in my comments, it wasn't comparing to BFL, as I had SPECIFICALLY said it was comparing apples to oranges as well. Guess you didn't READ that part.

To quote Shakespear, "Come, you are a tedious fool". You were playing off a previous example of ordering a singing fish off Amazon. Choose your own vendor from whom you ordered your Billy Bass singing fish, doesn't matter from me. But no matter what vendor you would have ordered your singing fish from, you would NEVER be considered an "investor" in the company you ordered from. You'd be investing in your own personal collection. Hence, YOU ARE NOT AN INVESTOR IN company X, just because you ordered an "investment" product from company X. This is really not rocket science. Fire up that second brain cell, guy. Roll Eyes

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That's totally immaterial to the discussion. How much money you could have made if the situation were different is just silly speculation. If they'd already shipped everything, difficulty would have risen sooner as well. Moot point, and again has nothing to do with whether you're one of BFL's "investors". You're a consumer who hoped to get a product earlier in order to make more money with it. Nothing more.

Nope.. it is actually THE subject. The amount of time it takes for them to ship the other types of devices and how every 2 weeks that goes by the difficulty rises and will do so even more if thousands of Jalapenos are in the market. I never said my figures WERE fact.. I even said "this is speculation" several times in this thread. But you don't read, and cherry pick comments to try and look bright.

Says the guy who cherry picks comments... How much money YOU anticipated making has nothing to do with ANYTHING other than your own personal aspirations. It's immaterial to the discussion, and STILL doesn't make you a "BFL Investor". It makes you a BFL CUSTOMER, who invested money into mining equipment of the BFL brand. Just like the gold miner who buys bulldozers.

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But Nthe POINT of the speculation is that the sooner they ship the more those people will make. You have been dodging that point ALL THREAD... until you finally gave up in your quote below

No shit! Everybody wants BFL to ship sooner, so they can make more money for themselves. THAT STILL DOESN'T MAKE YOU A BFL INVESTOR. If there were a lawsuit against "BFL and all their investors", would you consider yourself named in that suit? Would you show up to court to be sued? Nope, because you KNOW you're not a BFL investor. You're just a guy who ordered some cheap mining equipment, hoping it would make you rich.

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And they will. Those who receive their orders earlier (earlier orders) will make a higher return than those who order later. There was no gurantee that your profit increase would be exponential, you just presumed it. Everybody who ordered higher density hardware earlier will get their higher density hardware earlier than later higher-density orders.

First off.. I'm glad you finally come around to contradicting yourself.. your argument is unraveling. You also use the word "exponential". I never said it was exponential. Do you know what that word means? I never mentioned that word at all, but you like to twist words so your argument seems valid. Nice try Wink

Speaking of twisting words. What part of my argument is unraveling? You're still not a "BFL Investor". You're right that you didn't say exponential, but that's what many people expect. They expected that in getting their hardware "first", that would translate into MONTHS before most people, and would have given them exponentially more profits, in their own heads.

All you purchased was a spot in line for the shipping order of your product. Even if you ordered 6 months ahead of everybody else, that doesn't guarantee you a 6-month head start on mining. It just gives you a better spot in the queue. If 1 year's worth of orders got shipped in 2 weeks (highly unlikely, so before you nitpick, this is just an example), and you're at the front of the line you only get a 2 weeks of head start on your order. That's all you bought. That's all you paid for. There was no promise of a head start equal to the time your order was in place.

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No, these are people who put money into their own dreams. You (along with the others) saw dollar signs for yourself, not for BFL. You placed a pre-order for your high-density BFL hardware, because you wanted to be first in line to receive high-density BFL hardware. And you still have your same spot in line to receive that product. It sucks that it was delayed, but you're still getting EXACTLY what you paid for. A spot in line for a product, as well as having paid only half what others who order(ed) later than you are paying. I understand that it's frustrating that it's taken so much longer to develop than anticipated, but again, this has nothing to do with the Jalpeno orders or Jalpeno customers. and it doesn't make you a "BFL investor".

Actually, it does for a company who has no product. You have absolutely no argument for the fact that early investors gambled on them even being legit and having a product. It makes us an investor exactly like kickstarter does. It's not a typical investor relationship, but is an investment. Into a company and into our own hopes.

No, it still doesn't. You're still not a BFL investor. Just because YOU were speculating as to whether they had a real product or not, doesn't change BFL's role, or your relationship with them. You're still just a customer who placed a pre-order. Nothing more. It was an investment into yourself, just like gold mining equipment. Remember this quote FROM YOU?

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If you use the product to make money for a construction company, that purchase of bulldozers is an investment into YOUR company, not caterpillar.

Yup. Mining equipment is mining equipment. Your bulldozers... er... mining rigs are an investment IN YOUR COMPANY (probably unregistered, but that's irrelevant).

Hoisted on your own petard!

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I have no way of verifying it, but I do believe that BFL has stated from the beginning that pre-order money has not been touched. If that's true, your case is even weaker. Pre-orders for a product a company is making does not make you a "financial backer" of a company. Financial backers assume fiduciary risk with the company, they don't receive a product in return for their money, and they aren't entitled to refunds.

Yes, it does. At the time I ordered, they didn't even have a 3d model or drawing on a napkin of the product. When you pay in bitcoins, for a product that hasn't been engineered, you run a definite risk of never seeing your money back. The problem with your comments is everything is black and white for you, but not everything in life is black or white. This situation is very much in the grey area of investments.

Sending money for any product carries some amount of risk. It STILL doesn't make you a "BFL Investor". There was some risk on your part, in determining whether you'd ever see your product, but (and again, it's still irrelevant) it's not as if BFL was unknown. They were established as an FPGA mining equipment player. And there was never an agreement between you and BFL that your "investment" was speculative. If they'd failed to deliver a product, you'd have been (and felt yourself) entitled to a refund. If you were an investor, you would not have been, because your investment would have been a speculative one. You placed an order for a product, based on faith that they could produce it, with the expectation that if they failed, you'd be entitled to your money back. Pretty much the complete opposite of an investment in the company.

You had no "exposure" (look it up) outside the risk that it might be a scam and they might run off with your money. But you have that same risk ANY TIME you place an internet order.

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What's "right" is to fulfill all of their obligations as quickly as possible. They have the ability to currently fill a large portion of their obligations by shipping the orders that they have the hardware on hand to fill. Anything less than that would be foolish, bad for the company, bad for their ACTUAL investors, and bad for their customers (which is the category you fall into). If it had happened to be the hardware that YOU have on order that they'd completed first, and they were sitting on it waiting to complete development on all of their other products before shipping YOURS, you'd be pitching a fit. This whole "me, me, me, me" mentality is so transparent. You only want them to do what directly benefits YOU the most, and anything else will net outcry.

In the US, we have a policy called "first in first out" rule. What you think is "right" and what I think is "right" is purely subjective. I have jalapenos on order. If they keep shipping, I will certainly get my jalapenos before SEVERAL people get their SC, and minirigs. If they keep shipping jalapenos, I will get at least 10GH/s VERY soon.

There's no evidence that they're violating the concept of FIFO, dude. But again, FIFO doesn't apply to the entirety of their product line. Back to the Amazon example. Amazon is not obligated to hold back later orders for products they have on hand, in order to honor the concept of FIFO, when they have another product out of stock, with an earlier order associated. Customers Little Singles will ship in the order that orders were received for those, when they become available. Singles will ship in the order that they were ordered in, once they're available. When Little Singles and Singles become available, they will be added to the queue in relation to other products and their orders (IE, if BFL has shipped Jalpeno orders up through August, then they'll need to ensure that any further shipments of Jalpeno orders doesn't add to a delay for earlier orders for other products.

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So no, if they started making the other products, one SC will take up 16 of those chips that could have made 8 separate Jalapenos and I would end up getting my hashing power later. Nice try attempting to call me out on that but you should actually think before you speak. If you would have read my several posts in this thread you would have been able to use your brain before you spoke and realize this model would actually be better for me.

Your argument assumes that chips are the only limiting factor in production. If they start running out of chips then it doesn't matter what products they're going in, things are gonna be delayed for a while. But unless you have evidence that they intend to run out of chips by creating a huge surplus of unshipped Jalpenos, prior to completing development of any other rigs, your point is moot. Now that the chips are in large-scale production, there's no reason to assume that chips are the bottleneck at this point. 16 chips is 16 chips, regardless of what platform they're installed in. So how your small mind gets the idea that it's easier to produce and ship 50 Jalpenos than it is to ship the same hashing power in one or two units, is baffling. There's FAR more labor, time, and material expense in making a lot of low-density units than making one or two high-density units. This falls under the concept of economies of scale (Look it up. Same reason it's cheaper, per ounce, to buy a 50 Gallon drum of something, than a 1 Quart bottle of something).

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It's a possibility, but not altogether likely. I think that it's in their best interest to get as many of their products out the door as possible, regardless of a current financial situation. If, indeed, they are needing more money, it would seem that filling a large number of orders would entitle them to preorder money for those orders that has apparently been stashed away untouched. Perhaps opening up more capital to invest in the development of YOUR ordered products. More money for BFL quite likely will result in faster completion of the development of their other products that they're still working on.

money is not a problem for BFL shipping out faster. It is about getting the parts faster which means they have to finalize all of the other products AND get a whole lot more chips, boards, and cases in.

Uh, and you don't think these things cost money? You think the forge is just DONATING wafers of chips? You think the boards and cases are growing in cocoons? Roll Eyes