Quote from: MoonShadow on June 08, 2013, 03:23:38 AM

Quote from: ktttn on June 07, 2013, 04:52:48 PM

I don't intend to accept that we are at an impasse or are basically incompatable.

Quote from: MoonShadow on June 07, 2013, 03:54:08 PM

Quote from: ktttn

The systemic, unidealized process of selling my labor for a wage or other price is not dissimilar to slavery. I cannot sell my labor for a fair price, because my labor cannot be returned to me.

I don't disagree, but nor do I agree completely. My issue with the above statement is that what is a 'fair' price is a matter of perspectives, but what is the market price is independent of such perspectives.

Market price for labor is how slavery works.
There is no such thing as a fair price, because the human slave trade determines the market price from the most abject slavery to the mcdonalds employee to the middle management and way on up to the CEO. A one way "market" is not a market. I cannot buy back my labor.

Lovely opinion. Did you have an argument?

Quote

Quote from: MoonShadow

Quote

I can be coerced into selling my labor by circumstances beyond my control, namely the stigma of joblessness, the risk of homelessness and starvation, the boot of the cop, the irs agent and the soldier.

Again, we don't disagree on the substance, but on the causes. While the above is true enough, it's not the fault of the employer that you cannot get a better wage than what he chooses to offer for his work. nor are the circumsatances that compell you to seek employment his responsibility, so long as he is not conspiring with those agensts of the state to do so, in which case we are talking about fascism again.

Overlapping happens.
The offer is coercive.
The deal is a threat.
The wanting of wages is the motivation toward selling yourself into the modified slavery of employmemt.

Says you. Argument?

Quote

Quote from: MoonShadow

Quote

Who has a claim on my labor? Every living person has a fraction of a claim as long as they don't put me on their books as an employee.

And why is that, if you were to choose to reject such claims? If you choose to honor such claims, or honor an ideology that respects such claims, this cannot be slavery since it's voluntary on your part. What about those who have a different ideology than yours? Is is then acceptable to force your claims upon their person?

"Voluntary" slavery is real. Employment all too often restricts personal development.

By my understanding of the term, slavery implies involuntary servitude.

Quote

Quote from: MoonShadow

Quote

Mutual aid, not greed or euphamlisms for it drive the evolution of the world. Capitalism is dying.

What you call capitalism is, hopefully, dying. For myself and my family, I wish no part of it. You project your biases upon those you percieve as being in opposition to your ideal worldview, without honestly or accurately considering why there is oppossition at all. While it's possible that we are all deluded or hopelessly indoctrinated like you seem to assume, we are certainly not all ignorant nor stupid. What would that foretell of the likely future successes of your ideology, be it correct or not, if you cannot change the minds of a few moderately to well educated people on an internet forum? Simply decrying our perspectives as faulty, particularly lacking a rational argument as to why, is unlikely to do more than waste a lot of time. And the quote you provided from Bookchin is not an arguement, it's an opinion.

Indoctrinated, doubtlessly. Hopelessly? Hopefully not.
Well put opinions make for persuasive arguments.

You think that highly of your own opinion, do you?

Maybe for some people, but some people are easily influenced. I'm not one of those people. I require some convinceing, and you are falling down on the job.

Quote

Quote from: MoonShadow

Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion...

If you agree that your body belongs to yourself, do you agree that my body belongs to me? If so, then do you agree that my life also belongs to me, since I can't have one without the other?

Your labor is not yours to sell, its everyone else's inevitably and can't be fairly sold. Why not work for free? Your will is not up for purchase.

I disagree, my labor is as much to sell as anything else of my property. If you disagree, make an argument.

Quote

Your life is yours, but selling it is suicide.

So what if it is? If my life is mine, I have the right to dispose of it as I see fit, including to waste or destroy it. And no one else has the right to trump my decision.

Quote

Do you respect a world commiting suicide? (Skinny Puppy is awesome)

Are you a person or a random word bot?

I aspire to be a bot of some kind in the future.
Rights are funny, in that your decision to destroy yourself affects others- they rightfully have a say, don't they? It is after all your decision to respect their right.
Labor is not an object. It is an effect on objects. The attempt to commodify labor commodifies laborers instead.
No argument? Neat.

I think pretty highly of myself in general- its unfortunate for me that youv'e committed to the reverse standpoint.

I can submit that slavery is involuntary after an examination of the term voluneer. Someone self employed might be a volunteer, someone who works for free is also a volunteer.
An office worker might not be a volunteer, anyone with hardly another choice about what they do certainly cannot be a vollunteer.
We have slave vs volunteer, where do you see a real middle ground?

Finally it is my opinion that the human slave trade, in the most objectionable sense, provides the basis, the base price, for which the conditions, wages and finally salary of more and more priveleged slaves, or employees are determined.
Its a pretty solid opinion, if you ask me, doesnt need too many citations to have a useful and revealing streak of truth to it.
After all, most arguments are about opinions.
Now- about the state enforcement of rights to ownership of slaves... Hmm.