Quote from: CoinCube on November 07, 2017, 05:41:29 AM

Quote from: Astargath on November 06, 2017, 06:34:41 PM

The problem is that you cannot use theorem for theology, that's the consensus. The ''proof'' used here is nothing but the same old proof, just using Kurt Godel as an authority but it's the same thing. The same old assumptions without any bases like ''Whatever is outside the biggest circle is an uncaused cause'' or ''then we know what is outside that circle is not matter, is not energy, is not space and is not time. Its immaterial.''
NO WE DON'T. That's the whole fucking point, we don't know what's outside the circle and even if you know it's not matter, energy or space or time you still don't know that it's ''immaterial'' You are just assuming that, what is ''immaterial'' anyways?

There are many ways to challenge Perry Marshall's argument.

You can as aesma does challenge the claim that the universe is finite. It seems logical that the universe is finite but no one has proven this yet.

You can also argue the the universe is not rational. Just because it is rational and ordered in our section of the universe is not definitive proof. A similar argument could be made that the sun may rise in the west tomorrow.

Perry Marshall argues that if the universe is both rational and finite then it logically and mathematically follows that there is something outside of the universe. That something must logically be boundless, immaterial, indivisible and an uncaused cause.

Immaterial means it is not composed of any form of matter, energy, time, or space as we understand it.

Religion ultimately is a choice of primary intrinsic assumptions. These are the fundamental truths an individual builds ones worldview and life around. Every human being is religious even if that religion is some variation of nihilism or hardcore atheism.

Even if I would agree with everything, the argument says nothing about the possibility of more causes not just one, why does it necessarily have to be only one uncaused cause and not many uncaused causes, we also don't know what that uncaused cause or causes are, you are just assuming it's god because you are religious.