Quote from: CoinCube on November 24, 2017, 03:56:12 AM

Quote from: Astargath on November 23, 2017, 01:41:10 AM

''I would gently remind you that in our prolonged back and fourth above we reduced Perry Marshall's argument down to three primary assumptions'' If you admit they are just assumptions then don't use it as evidence to say the belief in god is logical. It would only be logical if all the assumptions are correct. I can use X amounts of assumptions to prove the belief in magic unicorns is logical. It's pointless.

As for my beliefs, I don't have. Why would I believe in anything for no reason?

All knowledge is ultimately based on apriori truth Astargath. All empiricism can ever do is take you back to primary assumptions and then evaluate the consistency and fit of the model from the basis of those assumptions.

I explained this earlier in some depth.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24418501#msg24418501

Your response was:

Quote from: Astargath on November 11, 2017, 10:54:43 PM

That was some next level bullshit my friend, what the fuck are you even talking about.

You don't understand epistemology and metaphysics. That is ok but the problem with not understanding metaphysics is that we really can't get very far in discussions such as ours above. It is metaphysics that teaches us how to use our understanding. Without metaphysics there is no knowledge or proof.

Quote from: Astargath on November 22, 2017, 01:04:40 PM

Adam and eve make no sense, how did they fail? Didn't they fail because god made them that way? If god knew they would fail, why make them and then punish them for something he already know would happen? It's garbage, you like logic so much, how is this logical to you?

Quote from: Astargath on November 23, 2017, 01:41:10 AM

why create humans that you know ultimately will fail and you want to send them to hell for eternal torture (which also makes no sense, eternal torture I mean) in any of this... Why is god attributed these silly emotions that only a mortal would have? Why would he send his ''son'' to sacrifice himself to himself in order to forgive us? Come on man, you gotta be kidding me, you really believe in this bullshit?

Up until now (several pages of) answers and replies to you have been simple logic and deduction essentially IF -> THEN statements. However, I am not wise enough to answer these last questions in the same definitive manner. The best I can do is share my opinions on these issues. Perhaps that will be helpful.

On the question of Adam and Eve I believe the Bible/Torah is best understood as a functional document. It's intent and purpose is to redeem and rectify humanity.

For this to occur biblical wisdom must be conveyed in a manner that is both simplified enough to be understandable by primitive man while simultaneously accurately reflecting a truth which can be better understood as our wisdom grows. The best way to meet these two needs is via parable and metaphor.

(The reasoning below represents my opinions and speculations on these issues. I make no claims beyond that)

Adam and Eve in the garden can be looked at literally as a man and a woman walking through a garden and considering the fruit of various trees.

Or Adam and Eve can be looked at as a metaphor for our species progenitors. All choices were potentially open to our remotest ancestors but a singular choice namely the development of an intellect capable of understanding good and evil was "forbidden" as that choice leads to severe and inevitable consequences.

Many "punishments" outlined in the Bible are not necessarily outside intervention but simple cause and effect the inevitable consequences we bring upon ourselves from sin.

Let's look at the "punishment" women received as a result of eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge.

Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman He said: 'I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy travail; in pain thou shalt bring forth children"

Why is childbearing in humans so painful? A religious man would have told you 1000 years ago that it was because Eve ate from the tree of knowledge. It has taken science a very long time to catch up to this very simplified but according to our current theories essentially accurate description.

Current science theory states that the reason human birth and labor is so painful and dangerous is due to the physiological consequences of our large brains specifically some combination of the physical limitations of pelvic size when walking upright and the extreme metabolic demands a large infant brain places on a mother.

See:
Why Is Human Childbirth So Painful?
https://www.americanscientist.org/article/why-is-human-childbirth-so-painful

For the most part God doesn't punish us we punish ourselves with our choices. Sometimes these "choices" were made long before our time but these the consequences nevertheless impact us.

Regarding eternal damnation not everyone who believes in God believes in eternal punishment and damnation. Some for example believe that hell is a very painful but temporary process. A purification process to remove falsehood and evil.

See:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1594422/jewish/Do-Jews-Believe-in-Hell.htm

Now unlike my prior posts which were simple logical deduction the arguments in this post are opinion. They are one possible interpretation. I have not proven this opinion is fact and am not in a position to do so currently. I share them as a potential answer to your questions but your questions are spiritual ones and must ultimately be answered on a personal and individual level.

Empiricism in the philosophy of science emphasizes evidence, especially as discovered in experiments. It is a fundamental part of the scientific method that all hypotheses and theories must be tested against observations of the natural world rather than resting solely on a priori reasoning, intuition, or revelation. Not just assumptions like you do.