Quote from: btc_uzr on December 05, 2017, 03:32:40 AM

Quote from: riskthebiscuit on November 29, 2017, 07:53:24 PM

Quote from: Future2Play on November 29, 2017, 07:19:33 PM

What is minimal amount of PAY tokens needs for get 0.5% holder reward?

No minimum friend as far as I recall.

Quote from: leojust on November 29, 2017, 07:34:13 AM

Quote from: btc_uzr on November 28, 2017, 02:44:42 PM

I'm scrating my head about three things, I do not understand. Maybe one can enlighten me, please.

https://blog.tenx.tech/tenx-q-a-livestream-and-transcript-10th-oct-2017-146c826cf66c

Quote

17) If we get rid of cards, will PAY holders still get the reward?

We cannot guarantee the 0.5% on any payment system, because on some payment systems we may not have 0.5% With any new payment systems that we are adding, we may be subject to different conditions. If we only get 0.25% from someone, we cannot forward you 0.5%. That said, we are not intending to remove the 0.5% from the debit card, because the commissions are there.

1) Do they consider to get rid of cards, if so what is their business then, if not why mention it in first place ?

2) They can't even offer the promised 0.5%, because they themselves may just get 0.25% and also have to cover operations, wages, offices, etc from it ?

3) My last question is the most important one. The only value driver for the PAY token is the 0.5% reward mentioned in the whitepaper as far as I understand. To justify today's token price of $2.46 right now derived from 0.5% of all transactions means:

104,661,310 tokens * $2,46 = $257,466,822.6 need to be collected

To make this happen we need 200 * <$ value of 0.5%> = $51,493,364,520
(close to a third of today's BTC marketcap: $167,024,234,822)

Under consideration that company tokens will get rewards as well, sooner or later (otherwise they would not have any use case or value) it becomes worse as you can imagine: 205,218,256 PAY tokens * $2,46 * 200 = $100,967,381,952

Let's calculate with 12k per person spent via the card in average, quite high, but may happen:
$12,000 * 0,005 = $60 collected (0.5% reward)

So, to collect $51,493,364,520 TenX needs: $51,493,364,520 / $60 per person and yr = 858,222,742 the amount of customer years required (one customer 10 years is equal to 10 customers one year).

Let's take a 10yrs forcast time (valid for some long term investors), it means TenX needs to have 85,822,274 customers spending $12k in average per year, and all company tokens must be destroyed. Otherwise the number roughly doubles to ~170,000,000 customers. If we do the math with 0.25% rewards it is >300 million customers required.
Just to break even on today's token price, while BTC keeps rising. And break even means not to make any profit at all.

=> Why does anyone buy it at these prices ?

Tell me, please, WHAT do I miss here??
* Is my math based on wrong facts and weird assumptions?
* Is there any obviously error I can't spot ?
* Or sth else I'm too blind to see ?

I'm VERY confused, since it seems I miss a few major points and thus look like a fool not getting the actual point.

To be clear: I want a fact-based discussion about it, a major bit missing in my picture, please help me to get it resolved. If you call my valid question just FUD, I'll call you just a marketmanipulator in return, because you are obviously NOT interessted in facts but play with ppl's emotions, only.

Thanks to whoever is willing to point me to the missing bits, much appreciated.

You actually managed to silence the TenX fanboyz, not one of them can answer your question without admitting the project lacks the ability to make a profit for card/token holders as suggested.

Well done using the truth to point out the failures of this scammy over promising under delivering project.

Meantime Dr Julian still has a cult following and is the savior for one and all. Cheesy

Haha no he simply got the analysis wrong and nobody has corrected him yet. Let's go through it bit by bit now.

1) I don't even know what you are asking here but no their main business isn't to get rid of cards. It is to make it so that you can spend BTC, ETH, DASH, ERC20 tokens and more through their app. This is step 1 with the ultimate goal like others mentioned to be able to spend fiat

2) LOL what kind of random assumption is this? They ran an ICO and that is what pays for the office, wages, etc etc. They said several times now the 0.5 rewards will be coming soon either end of year or early next year there is nothing hidden here.

3) First off you use a wrong # in $2.46 but I will let that slide because that isn't the biggest mistake here. Your biggest mistake in the calculations is using the circulating supply as the right number. This is wildly incorrect as devs, founders, exchanges, none of these individuals will receive the dividend. I obviously don't know how many tokens this is but simply put your calculation will be off 100%.

Then after that because that is incorrect the rest is moot, but even then I couldn't understand what you were trying to do at all. It is a complete fail please re go back look at the WP and do some hwk. Because why are you even going 104m tokens x 2.46 for price justification? That is what the marketcap is it has nothing to do with payouts. Payouts are based on how much people spend and this will be distributed through the tokens that qualify which is the only math you should be doing imho.

to 1) and 2) I was wondering about the weird wording, since it implied somehow that they may stop their card business, and if not it raises the question why talk about

Your 3) point is complete bs, and you know it, they lie about it, if their tokens will never receive rewards why not destroy those worthless tokens, that will never receive any rewards ?

Further you assume my math is wrong, but you fail to present more accurate numbers.
I think you bought way too high this worthless piece of bits+bytes and you need to hype hot air to pass your losses on others.

The 0.5 rewards you mention, while they say themselves they earn from the 3% merchant side only 0.25%, and can't pass 0.5%, wher edo they come from? In addition the question then remains how the company can be sustainable? Yes, for now they have all your money to travel around the world, but it will be gone one day - and then ?

Quote from: moratar on November 30, 2017, 09:00:52 PM

Quote from: leojust on November 29, 2017, 07:34:13 AM

104,661,310 tokens * $2,46 = $257,466,822.6 need to be collected

To make this happen we need 200 * <$ value of 0.5%> = $51,493,364,520
(close to a third of today's BTC marketcap: $167,024,234,822)

Under consideration that company tokens will get rewards as well, sooner or later (otherwise they would not have any use case or value) it becomes worse as you can imagine: 205,218,256 PAY tokens * $2,46 * 200 = $100,967,381,952

Let's calculate with 12k per person spent via the card in average, quite high, but may happen:
$12,000 * 0,005 = $60 collected (0.5% reward)

So, to collect $51,493,364,520 TenX needs: $51,493,364,520 / $60 per person and yr = 858,222,742 the amount of customer years required (one customer 10 years is equal to 10 customers one year).

Bad assumptions give bad results

1) 12k usd per person per year -> most ppl who get tenx card were early in crypto bussines = they got cash.
I got card for 1 month. My spending was ~11k usd in last month using card. My early spending should be close to 120k-150k usd per year. Average probably should be close to 50% or average yearly salary of person using card or more like 75%. I would say it is safe to assume 30k usd per year per user.

2) You don't count total value equal to 1 year earnings

never ever!.
This company will not case to exist in 1 year so this assumption that company vaporizes in 1 year is extremely faulty giving huge error.
Look at Tesla P/E = infinity

Netflix P/E = 189
Amazon P/E = 297
Yelp P/E = 489

(P/E is Price/Earning)

Average for tech companies is ~30. Good companies with good potential growth in future are 100+. So Tenx should have at least P/E=100.

So after fixing base assumptions, let's fix your calculations:

104,661,310 tokens * $2,46 /100(p/e) = $2,574,668 need to be collected

To make this happen we need 200 * <$ value of 0.5%> = $51,493,364

$30,000 * 0,005 = $150 collected (0.5% reward)

So, to collect $2,574,668 TenX needs: $2,574,668 / $150 per person per year = 17164 customer using card.

As far as i can know they will get about 25k working card till end of 2017.
So according to this calculation price NOW should be 2.46$(value used for calculations)*25000/17164 (really working cards/amount from calculation) = 3,58USD per 1 PAY token.

If they get 50k working cards value should be 7,16USD, 100k working cards 35,8 USD.
1k working cards -> 1Pay = 0.35USD Grin

Everything now depends how many cards were shipped! This is very valuable insider info.

there are 300 million ppl in crypto, rich like you, who will spent 11k per month in average?
343,289 customer years they need to justify the price you say, if they got rich customers only
and company tokens can be destroyed as they never receive any rewards
and the price development can catch up with BTC all the way long ?

you also hype hot air in my eyes, that is far from being reasonable numbers

I'm sorry for your losses, but take it as a man, you gambled/were fooled, do not try to pass it on to crypto-newbiews, that is not fair.

Actually it comes even worse, no rewards at all.

Quote from: https://blog.tenx.tech/tenx-pay-token-structure-update-4f19be727870

For a token not to be seen as a security or any other type of regulated product, there must not be any expectation of any receipt of investment returns by its holders. Therefore, we would be unable to provide any assurance that any rewards will be distributed to PAY token holders even under the updated structure and PAY token holders should not expect to receive any rewards even under the updated structure.

I feel a bit left out. I did a pretty good write up on both pros and cons that you didn't get right. It took me a really long time to fact check your post and it looks like you didn't read it Sad