Quote from: awaran on November 29, 2017, 10:56:18 PM

Quote from: btc_uzr on November 28, 2017, 02:44:42 PM

I'm scrating my head about three things, I do not understand. Maybe one can enlighten me, please.

https://blog.tenx.tech/tenx-q-a-livestream-and-transcript-10th-oct-2017-146c826cf66c

Quote

17) If we get rid of cards, will PAY holders still get the reward?

We cannot guarantee the 0.5% on any payment system, because on some payment systems we may not have 0.5% With any new payment systems that we are adding, we may be subject to different conditions. If we only get 0.25% from someone, we cannot forward you 0.5%. That said, we are not intending to remove the 0.5% from the debit card, because the commissions are there.

1) Do they consider to get rid of cards, if so what is their business then, if not why mention it in first place ?

2) They can't even offer the promised 0.5%, because they themselves may just get 0.25% and also have to cover operations, wages, offices, etc from it ?

3) My last question is the most important one. The only value driver for the PAY token is the 0.5% reward mentioned in the whitepaper as far as I understand. To justify today's token price of $2.46 right now derived from 0.5% of all transactions means:

104,661,310 tokens * $2,46 = $257,466,822.6 need to be collected

To make this happen we need 200 * <$ value of 0.5%> = $51,493,364,520
(close to a third of today's BTC marketcap: $167,024,234,822)

Under consideration that company tokens will get rewards as well, sooner or later (otherwise they would not have any use case or value) it becomes worse as you can imagine: 205,218,256 PAY tokens * $2,46 * 200 = $100,967,381,952

Let's calculate with 12k per person spent via the card in average, quite high, but may happen:
$12,000 * 0,005 = $60 collected (0.5% reward)

So, to collect $51,493,364,520 TenX needs: $51,493,364,520 / $60 per person and yr = 858,222,742 the amount of customer years required (one customer 10 years is equal to 10 customers one year).

Let's take a 10yrs forcast time (valid for some long term investors), it means TenX needs to have 85,822,274 customers spending $12k in average per year, and all company tokens must be destroyed. Otherwise the number roughly doubles to ~170,000,000 customers. If we do the math with 0.25% rewards it is >300 million customers required.
Just to break even on today's token price, while BTC keeps rising. And break even means not to make any profit at all.

=> Why does anyone buy it at these prices ?

Tell me, please, WHAT do I miss here??
* Is my math based on wrong facts and weird assumptions?
* Is there any obviously error I can't spot ?
* Or sth else I'm too blind to see ?

I'm VERY confused, since it seems I miss a few major points and thus look like a fool not getting the actual point.

To be clear: I want a fact-based discussion about it, a major bit missing in my picture, please help me to get it resolved. If you call my valid question just FUD, I'll call you just a marketmanipulator in return, because you are obviously NOT interessted in facts but play with ppl's emotions, only.

Thanks to whoever is willing to point me to the missing bits, much appreciated.

Thanks for numbering your questions

1) I think they have a physical card and a virtual card on your phone with a card number. you can use the virtual card online and prob tap to pay. I spoke with someone from china and apparently no one carries credit cards there, it's just all virtual on their phone. When you sign up for a card, I think the physical card is optional. You can get a virtual card and it costs less or it's free or something.

2) I think what they were talking about is if you withdraw money from an ATM, there is no merchant fee at the ATM. Without a merchant to charge there's no fee that TenX can kick back money to the token holders (except for maybe the 2.75 they charge?). I also think banks issuing their cards can make deals with some merchants that lower the percent taken by TenX but TenX is working on issuing it's own cards.

3) I did the math a while back and I came to a worse conclusion at first. I used 200,000,000 instead of 100,000,000 in my calculations, so I got twice the number you did. 100,000,000 is in circulation and 100,000,000 is held by TenX. Then I read that tokens on exchanges won't take part in the payout and I think (correct me if i'm wrong) the tokens held by TenX won't take part until they get distributed to employees and to other people during promotions. So I estimated maybe 50,000,000 to 80,000,000 were going to take part at first then it will grow close to 200,000,000 minus what's on the exchanges as time goes on.

The 0.5% reward is what they are giving out right now. They are currently getting a banking license (scheduled at the end of 2018). With a banking license they can issue their own debit / credit cards and do the other stuff that banks do. Right now TenX uses a bank to issue their debit cards so they get a smaller chunk of the ~3% merchant fees. The 3% fees are split between the card issuing bank, visa and the bank taking the money. In TenX's case they get a percent of what the card issuing bank gets. When I search online for credit cards, I see a lot of credit cards that have a 2% cash back on them. I'm guessing TenX can get up to 2% and the remaining 1% is split between the bank taking the money and visa. So it's not unreasonable to think the 0.5% can increase significantly. I doubt it will / can go beyond 2% though.

I believe coinbase has a debit card and it's pretty popular. You can spend bitcoin and with a few uncommon modifications, you can spend ethereum. The daily limits are pretty low though. TenX does not charge anything to go from crypto to fiat (I think coinbase charges at least 1.5%). I think when you sell your crypto, TenX finds the best price for you on a number of different exchanges instead of just one exchange so you get a better conversion price on top of that. TenX has a few tokens that work on top of Eth and BTC in beta. Even if the TenX card charges 1% to use their debit card, it's still better than the best alternative i've seen so far.

Right now TenX is not planning on charging for people or exchanges to use Comit (An Exchange protocol they are making like 0X only better because if you look into it, Comit can find better prices via a protocol like the routing protocol "Open Shortest Path First"). TenX is not even planning to use TenX as gas in the protocol. I doubt coin holders would get anything from Comit other than deflation if Pay tokens are used as gas like 0x.

I'm also looking at the spending habits of some people I know who were early crypto investors. They have crypto debit cards that charge them when they use it and they only complain about the low spending limits. I think TenX limits are higher.

I won't go into the 0.1% cash back (in pay tokens) to the card holders because I think that's a wash (money going out and money going back in).

I view it as owning dividends of a debit card company while also owning dividends from their incomplete projects that are similar to Omasie go and ripple / coinbase / 0x.

If anyone would like to pay it forward I have a question. What is a Visa program manager? I heard about it a few days / weeks ago and asked about it but no one answered. From a google search it sounds like it's just a step in complying to banking regs. Does it do anything else? Super thanks to anyone who answers this.

with the proliferation of something isn't always important to have an initial profit, the monetization can occur when you pass a certain prevalence. it is therefore important to achieve a great penetration even at a loss initially.