Quote from: fm1984 on December 01, 2017, 12:43:54 AM

Quote from: envion on November 30, 2017, 09:06:38 PM

Quote from: fm1984 on November 30, 2017, 08:00:06 PM

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Hi. The answers to all these questions are on Telegram. You would still be able to look them up if you hadn't been hostile and had group members ask that you be banned. It's an unfortunate trend that people who cannot be civil on Telegram come to bitcointalk to air their grievances. Asking nicely is a much easier alternative.
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CLOSING
In the future, when you come to our community channels, be polite. Search the existing content for answers and ask any unanswered questions nicely. If you still have questions, please ask them here. We are listening.

@Envion

Thanks for replying my questions. I found your project interesting at first sight, hell I was willing to invest! But then I read the article in Hacked, and now I see, it was 100% on the spot! https://hacked.com/continue-reading/

But as we have freedom on the net, and this forum is legendary for spreading info, (as many people invested their valuable time to improve our world with blockchain), you have tempted me to a response. Please do not forget YOU are the one here selling something, I am not. I am giving my opinion to investors. Here goes :

Dear Envion,

Firstly please stop lying. I haven´t insulted anyone on your Telegram, your people there just blocked me because I dared to ask questions. Exact same thing happened to guy from Hacked. You accused him of insults too.

If you accuse me of something be sure to deliver proof. I dare you! I have this chats on Telegram stored, don´t make me post it here. Again I did not insult anyone, your people on Telegram are arrogant, as are you, and not able to go in discussion. All they keep reapeting is, and I will put it in simple words:

"read the white paper, everything is in there. We are professionals, we know what we do, stop asking stupid questions. Trust us, give us our money."

It is fine to explain to noobs on Telegram how they can transfer their money to you, but I want answers to my questions.

-->--> No one is removed from Telegram unless they violate the channel's rules and other community members ask for them to be removed. I do not act unilaterally and I give the same quality answers there as I do here.
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POSTPONING
Postponing was a no-brainer. We're looking at deals that could rival the size of our ICO and bring greater returns to every token holder. Nobody who manages to get a token on the 15th is going to second-guess that decision.

--> no real content here. So one day before the ICO should begin, you have new deals, but no info on what deal. We should just trust you and wait for it. Will do! Very curious. I think you didn't´t get enough fishes.

-->--> We have over 70,000 people signed up for the pre-sale. I'm not aware of any other ICO that has gotten that kind of traction. We have more than enough interest to meet our hardcap in a short time.
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BANK INFO
We'll give evidence of the cooperation in the coming days even if we can't give the bank name. This is big news for us and a top priority.

--> again no content. So we will never know which bank it is. We will just have to trust you. I will be waiting for your evidence.

-->--> Patience is important. We are not a 4-person start-up. The reason we can get big deals is that we operate like an enterprise and that means discretion on certain matters. If we can't give the name, we'll do something like we did with our auditor deal so that you can verify what we say without having to disclose the name of the other parties to the deal.

Something like this: https://medium.com/@envion/envion-has-engaged-big-four-consulting-firm-deae68d0bc24
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TEMPERATURE EXTREMES
Our MMUs work at VERY low temp with outside temperatures in a normal range. Our testing shows that it will work in 40C. Also, if we need to retrofit a container for a special installation location, then we'll do that.

--> I will repeat my question form previous two posts. Where are these test? Where are these results? in you white paper you have fancy sketches and pictures. Why can´t we see these tests? This is the deal breaker for me. I want the data, show it if you are legit!

-->--> Please read and respond to what we publish before you say there is no data. https://medium.com/@envion/fundamentals-of-air-cooling-6263bbfd64dc

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Right now we have the luxury of choice of where in the world we install. These edge cases are a non-issue to profitability. For some reason, people think the company can't make money because there exist places in the world where X occurs. We just won't take those deals if we can't figure out a way to make money. There are plenty of offers where we can do just fine.

---> So let me quote your white paper in case you forgot:

"...This process has gone even further. In India, Chile and the Middle East, PV plants get paid as little as $0.03 to $0.04 Cents (USD) per kWh generated, which is only a slightly more than the price of dirty coal power..." and

" ... Once built, they are tied to their location and might lose competitiveness to other locations if price structures change. While new market conditions might be lethal for traditional data centers, they offer vast opportunities for the global, exible and intelligent mining operation that envion is launching now..."

So I read: in India, Chile, Middle East and also California, there is cheap electricity for now, and your MMU will be moved to location where this cheaper power is available so to this hot countries. And you are saying "we just won´t take deals if we can figure out". What is it now? Have you or have you not figured it out? It reads in the white paper as, you have figured everything out, and you´re willing to move your MMUs to places like this. Why use this places like an example if you re not gonna move MMUs there. Now you are saying "people think the company....". Yes I think, I am people.

-->--> Please consider all the the information I give as part of a constellation of data points that go into determining the eligibility of an install location. Extreme condition Xwhether it be temperature or something elseis just one of many conditions. We believe we can go most of the places mentioned above right now. If we encounter any one condition that seems prohibitive, then we consider the cost of a retrofitted container, change in design, additional maintenance, etc before accepting any deal.

Just because I talk about constraints and decision points does not mean that any ONE of them is going to stop us form installing. If it does, that's just part of doing business and we have plenty of offers, so at this point there are myriad options where mining is profitable right nowand yes, some of them will have us operating where ambient temperature is 40C.
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HEATING
Our operating unit is currently inside a factory providing winter heat.

--> Do you have a big demand on heaters for factories? Do you have deals? Can you provide more info on that?

-->--> We have some interest, but far more from plant operators. It's just representative of an alternative use case and we are being approached with new use case concepts from potential customers ever day. After the ICO, we will spend more time evaluating which are the most promising. For now, we are focused on plant operators with access to pre-grid energy and we will be fulfilling those orders for a long time to come.
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MAINTENANCE
Anyone can put GPUs in a box and call it a mining unit. Our innovation is that we use the same processes that industry uses to design for maintenance, for production lines, and for remote operation. If you are comparing envion to random miners operating in a random corner of the world and not enterprises like Bosch or Samsung, then you don't grasp how we operate.

---> Yes, correct. I don´t grasp how you operate. That is exactly why I have asked you this questions. Furthermore just so you know, there are already many multibillion industrial mining farms around the world. I know this because I have seen them with my own eyes or footage of them. From your company I have seen two youtube videos of a container with holes in it and two small fans on the sides...

-->--> We have published many videos and live streams. Please see our social media channels. A container-based unit is never going to look like a multibillion-dollar data center. They are designed to be modular, robust, and used standardized parts. If you want a pretty looking mining unit, you're better off waiting until Apple designs one. Ours are pieces of industrial equipment and that's what they look like.

For example, the pipes on the outside are inexpensive standard DIN pipes. We do that so that they can be replaced cheaply anywhere in the world to reduce cost and downtime should any part fail. Static data centers don't have this challenge so they don't have to work as hard on design. They can use custom parts which are costly and hard to source. If we tried to impress you with optics, our product would not meet the KPIs that make it viable for envion's business model use cases.
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The MMUs are designed to be as low maintenance as possible. Even thought they are close to zero maintenance, our first customers will host large arrays of dozens of MMUsplaces where it will be cost effective to have maintenance personnel on duty or where power plant personnel can be trained to perform routine activities.

--> This is my favourite part of your reply.
So your answer to my question, where the engineer or IT guys will be, inside the container or sitting outside somewhere, or traveling. Your answer is, power plant personal will be trained? lol
And I also like the part where you have customers who will put miners in dozens of MMUs. One MMU fits about 90 ASICS so >1000 ASICS will come your way. Do you have a timeline when this dozens of MMUs are going to be released? Do you already have such customers who have over 1000 ASIC ready to put in a container?

-->--> Maintenance personal will not need to monitor operations full time, if that's what you're asking. The inside of a MMU is not hospitable to humans: it's windy and loud and the cooling system requires an unobstructed air flow.

Yes, we have customers interested in large arrays. I'm glad you like that.

Production starts in January. It will take a few weeks to scale up the production line. At scale, a MMU will roll off the line every few hours. The full order for the ICO MMUs should be finished in Q2.

Yes, we have vendors for ASICs. We organized this before announcing the ICO. Since the ICO, we get offers every day from ASIC vendors. When you are making multi-million-dollar orders, there is ample supply.
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Eventually, we will engineer all of the remaining manual maintenance activities out of the design and it will be possible to install a single unit somewhere where maintenance personnel is not available. Again, for now we have the luxury of choice and all the calculations for this are in the ROI details we've published.

--> I can not believe my eyes! So you are telling, you are going to monitor (realistic), control (realistic) and maintain (NOT realistic) over 90 miners from a distance? But until you get there "eventually" you will have the power plant guys do it? Hmmm good very satisfying response.

-->--> No. This is the opposite of what I said. Large arrays will have dedicated personnel. We are not at the point where a single MMU can be 100% maintained from a distance. That is the goal we are working toward. All installations will have plans for maintenance and that is factored into costs.
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HARDWARE REPLACEMENT
Our calculations include regular hardware replacements due to bad miners or occasional burn out. More importantly, our mining software makes those replacements much less likely.

--> This is maybe the biggest invention and news. So you have software which will compensate for inferior hardware? So if GMO manages to make 7nm chips and miners come out. You have 100 000 USD ready for replacement ? Or is your software going to compensate?

-->--> Please read my whole response. No, it's not cost effective to replace the entire hardware of a MMU (see below). We will produce with latest hardware. Deprecated hardware that can no longer mine will have other uses.
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When the hardware is no longer able to mine profitably, then we use it for something else. Large enterprises as well as startups are investing billions into blockchain technologies and the computational power from these miners can be used to provide the physical infrastructure these businesses rely on. The cost of the container itself is marginal compared to the GPU/ASIC price. When they are completely obsolete and cannot provide any more value, the entire unit will simply be replaced. That's part of what the 25% reinvestment is aboutgrowth and deprecated MMU replacement. That is all part of the ROI calculations.

--> Yes throw some more "billions and millions" I guess the greedy noobs really like that. 25% will cover the cost of 100 000USD new mining hardware you will need every year for each MMU? You probably have heard of technological singularity ? Yes Blockchain is big business now already and everyone wants a piece. If you are in crypto for several years and have witnessed the parabolic growth, not just of price of crypto, but advances in mining hardware. Then you will get my point, your MMUs with a price tag of 100 000 are too expensive! I expect hardware updates will be needed at least once a year. This means the cost of a MMU will be double of what you expect it to. So all your calculation and 25% is not going to make it.

-->--> I don't think you grasp what I'm saying. Hardware will not be replaced because the majority of the unit cost comes from hardware.

After so many days, an array of 10 MMUs finances the production of a new one, then another. As MMUs become obsolete, they have already paid for their replacements. Our 10 MMU array has financed its own replacement a few times over after 2 years when mining may no longer be profitable. So 10 more are already installed there with latest hardware. The old ones can still operate and use computing for other purposesfinancing even more new MMUs. By the time they are completely obsolete from any useful purpose, they have paid for their replacements many times over.

My Conclusion:
This is all my personal opinion. Everyone is free to invest in what they want. Everyone is free to their opinion. This is why this kind of forum exists. If you do not want people asking questions or being critical, then you do not know the mindset of the core supporters of crypto. Then just ran adds on google as click bate.

For people new in crypto, watch out, do your own thinking and invest only that what you can afford loosing.
I do not think Envion is a scam. The idea of mobile mining solutions sounds nice. But the question is, when there are already big mining facilities function and offer 0.03 or 0.04USD power cost and offer maintenance of miners, offer professional engineers working on the project. People who mined before some of this guys of Envion even knew what Bitcoin was. Why take the risk with Envion? For me this guys do not bring real answers, they are common salesman. Just repeating sentences with no reals content, trying to get a piece of the cake. I rather by coins and HODL!
P.S. Examples of failed ICOs on mining:
https://affinitymining.io
https://mineum.org
https://bitcoinexchangeguide.com/tothemoon/
Good luck everyone!

Answers in line above.

We encourage everyone to be skeptical and to do their due diligence. We hope that includes reading all the information we publish. You have a certain idea of how mining should be done and it's clearly very different from the enterprise model that we have created. Our goals are different and our team and designs reflect that.

Our approach is a very German approach to mining with a laser focus on efficiency, simplicity, and thorough design of processes and components. We don't just have data center engineers, but professionals who apply their expertise to every aspect of the business from logistics, to parts design, to business data processing. That doesn't dilute the expertise we bring to mining, it enhances the viability of our mining expertise to be profitable in the long-term and with more diverse use cases and operating conditions. We are creating an industrial product and not trying to convince anyone otherwise.