Quote from: brucewagner on December 01, 2010, 08:22:55 PM

Ok... I got a reply today.

To refresh your memory, I sent the following email to the creator of the film, "Money As Debt II"...

Quote

To: Paul Grignon <pgrignon@island.net>

Hello!

We are discussing your film in the Bitcoin Forum ( here
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1992.0 )

Are you already familiar with Bitcoin?!?!?

If not, please see http://BitcoinMe.com for a quick introduction to
what it's all about.

Bitcoin is a FOSS (free open source software) project that is making
huge advances very quickly. The Bitcoin economy is already over
US$1.3 Million in total value.

We already have a "bounty" ( sort of a contest, to see who can come
up with the best animated video explaining Bitcoin to everyday
people... with the best video winning the prize pot... currently about
$2,520 ). See http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=697.0;all

I think it would be wonderful if you were to create a film explaining
"What is a Bitcoin?"

Also, I've gotta ask... Toward the end of "Money As Debt II", you
were describing a digital currency enabled through encryption
technology.... Were you already aware, at that time, that Bitcoin
existed... or was about to be invented?

Bruce Wagner
New York City
http://BitcoinMe.com
646-580-0022 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 646-580-0022 end_of_the_skype_highlighting

Today, I received his reply...

Quote

Hi Bruce

No I did not know about bitcoin when I made Money as Debt II

It sounds like you didn't watch to the end of the credits where I send you to digitalcoin.info

The idea came from the technology being developed at maidsafe.net.

The inventors, having seen Money as Debt asked me for help explaining their technology. This is the animated movie I made for them (the 12 min. link)

http://www.paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoonfireStudio/PAGES/PD/Perpetual_Data_homepageFlash.html

They also asked me for ideas how to use it as a completely liberated money system.

Money as Debt II ends by sending the viewer to digitalcoin.info which is my answer to their question.

I didn't get paid for any of this by the way. I am not working FOR them.

I was previously invited to enter this contest and declined.

Making it a contest is, from my viewpoint, highly disrespectful of the work it would take to do a good job.

But if someone does have the time to spare you may get what you want.

I am currently busy completing Money as Debt III, Evolution Beyond Money explaining my alternative economy concepts.

It will hopefully be as educationally useful and well-accepted as the first two movies.

By the way there are no "producers'. Other than the narration I do everything.

Paul

First, I wanted to let Paul Grignon know that we meant no disrespect by calling it a "bounty" or a "contest".

We all just want to honor those who create great works. We have a desire to scrape together whatever coins we can, to say "Thank You" to those who create such fantastic works. In fact, I propose that we stop calling these things "a bounty" or "a contest". We should call it "an award". We have created "a new award"... "an award with a prize attached". Because that's what it really is. We can also express that "we are seeking nominations" for the award. That sounds so much more respectful of all the hard work - blood, sweat, and tears - that software developers, film animators, and any other types of content-creators produce... and contribute for the benefit of us all. The small "prize" we offer is not a purchase price. It's simply one token of our appreciation for their hard work. It's a Thank You.

Next, I want everyone here to look at Paul's ideas. They're very interesting. Don't just skim over them. Study them. His concept of - what he calls "Digital Coin" - encompasses TWO TYPES of digital currency. One Type, which he calls the "Perpetual Coin", represents "permanent value" (that one sounds like an exact match to Bitcoin - correct me if I'm wrong?). The Other Type, which he calls a "Credit Coin", represents a form of a "value voucher" that anyone can issue themselves... and spend into circulation... in effect, giving themselves instant credit. (For example, if I install Linux for people. I can issue a "Bruce Wagner Consulting 20 BTC Credit Coin". That coin would be worth 20 BTC worth of my services/products, as they are priced whenever it is redeemed.) However, he proposes that the actual value of the Credit Coins I issue would vary... based on real-time trading of these Credit Coins on automated markets (think http://MtGox.com). If demand for my services/products was low, the value (the relative value, as measured in how many "real" BTC people are willing to buy/sell them for) of the "Bruce Wagner Consulting 20 BTC Credit Coins" I issued would be lower. If demand for my services/products was high, the value (again, the relative value, as measured in how many "real" BTC people are willing to buy/sell them for) of the "Bruce Wagner Consulting 20 BTC Credit Coins" I issued, would be higher. However, in any case, that Credit Coin would ultimately always be redeemable by ME (the issuer) at 20 BTC WORTH of my services/products (at MY current "real" BTC prices). He also proposes that these Credit Coins would have a premium value if used (spent at Bruce Wagner Consulting) within a certain timeline (not immediately), and also that they would have a decreasing value over time... ultimately expiring completely. Thus, "forcing them" to ultimately be "spent" at Bruce Wagner Consulting, not hoarded.

Anyway...

You MUST WATCH this first. Don't be deceived by the title. You need to watch this 7 minute video first: http://www.digitalcoin.info/The_Essence_of_Money.html

Second, this video translates the concepts of the first video, into the dual coin "Digital Coin" concept. You must watch this 8 minute video: http://www.digitalcoin.info/Digital_Coin_Introduction.html

Finally, read this 4 page article... where Paul describes the concept in detail: http://www.digitalcoin.info/Digital_Coin_in_Brief_07-17-09.pdf

You must see these videos, and read that article, before any of this will really make sense.

For example, NOW I understand what farmer_boy was saying earlier, when he said...

Quote from: farmer_boy on November 29, 2010, 08:54:02 PM

Another money system is described on http://digitalcoin.info (this is what the Money as Debt 2 movie refers to). As with bitcoins, I see no formal specification of how it is supposed to work, but it seems to me to be a better system than bitcoins if you look at the kind of properties one would want to get out of a money system and those that are actually obtained.

Bitcoins are similar to the permanent digital coins type, but have the downside (or upside depending on your role) of having a purely speculative value. The credit coin has no counterpart in the Bitcoin system and as such doesn't perform all functions one would like to get from a money system.

The author of bitcoins has a technical background, but less of an experience in money history (correct me if I am wrong). The designer of the digitalcoin probably has a less technical background, but a firm understanding of money and its history.

The most important feature that the digital coins have is that you never have the "we won't do this project, because there is no money"-problem, which was what happened in 1929. There were workers, people wanting to eat, and factories, but no money.

Initially, it does seem rather complicated to make these kinds of credit coins contract (see the movie), but if one were to label ever product with a number (which already happens for a lot of products (e.g. a soda)), then it wouldn't really be a problem.

What are your thoughts on digital coin?

P.S.
Is the guy from OpenTransactions also on this forum? It seems he has the broadest technical view as he has implemented a very wide range of systems and documented these on his website.

The overall idea proposed by Paul is a VERY intriguing concept... And, from my viewpoint, they seem very much in concert with Bitcoin concepts... just an EXPANSION of the Bitcoin idea... from being only about VALUE... into the world of CREDIT... Self-created credit. Automatically-adjusted-value credit. And Interest-Free credit. Very interesting.

Credit coins are a popular idea on alternative money sites.

The usual set up is slightly different than what you are putting forth though, rather than 20 BTC of your services they are worth a time increment of your time. This would allow for them to be worth more than 20 btc, whereas only a fool would pay more than 20btc for a voucher that can only be redeemed for 20btc worth of services. if it is worth an hour however it could be worth 20btc now, and considerably more in the future as you become more recognized or more trained.