Quote from: MAbtc on July 12, 2013, 09:42:59 AM

Quote from: Rampion on July 12, 2013, 08:30:36 AM

Quote from: MAbtc on July 11, 2013, 06:37:08 PM

This "bitcoin revolution" stuff doesn't add anything. Like other web/mobile payment systems, you can send/receive money virtually instantly to an electronic address. Yes, it's not tied to a government -- but we're talking about utility here, not political philosophy and idealism.

This you call "political philosophy and idealism" is in reality a very big practical problem solver for a big part of the world. I will give you two examples based on my very own personal experience:

1) Have you ever tried to do business with Argentina? I've been doing for many years, with big and reputable companies (but currently in a "fight" with C. Kirchner), until they couldn't pay us any more in USD because of internal monetary policy. The situation got so absurd that I was offered to flight to Buenos Aires to pick up a suitcase full of useless pesos. Obviously I declined as that is a dangerous game, I took quite a big loss and I moved on, not doing any more business with that country. That problem persists and is very common in my industry, Argentina is "cut out". BTC has the potential to solve that problem.

2) One of my best friend moved to a South American country, and there are very big barriers to get a residence permit (the process is lengthy and the bureocracy messy), and without resident permit you can't have bank accounts that allow international wires, both incoming and outgoing. BTC is actually solving that problem, besides of the exchange rate risk (which is indeed big at this moment).

Plus, I think that I don't have to remind you what happened in Cyprus, and the amount of money taxpayers from most of Europe and the US had to pay from their own pockets to bail out "too big to fail" banks. I guess you also know that Southern Europe countries are in the middle now of a deep financial crisis triggered again but a disastrous monetary policy.

So, I understand how for a lot of US and generally speaking "first world" folks the "decentralized, trust-free" characteristic of BTC is only "ideological", but the reality is it is not: millions of people are becoming poorer because of the IMF, FED or ECB monetary policies.

TL;DR -> do not underestimate the practical need for monetary freedom.

You definitely bring up some interesting points. My feeling is that bitcoin is too illiquid and volatile at this point to serve these purposes on scales worth mentioning, though I agree, the potential is there. Indeed, people are becoming perpetually poorer because of destructive monetary policy, but that doesn't address what I was saying. My frustration is with the tendency to speak of bitcoin's potential as already having been fulfilled -- and that by its potential alone, it is useful. This forum is awash with that sentiment. It's funny, but frustrating, when people ignore everything you say and reply, "but, bitcoin revolution!" or something similar. The early discussion re utility is a good example of how irrelevant that can be (and how cult-like it comes off).

Completely agree on the "potential" part. Bitcoin is revolutionary indeed, but its potential its still unrealized.

Going back at the two personal examples I gave you in my last posts: the company with which I did business in Argentina in the past, would never pay me in BTC at this stage. The process to buy significant amounts of BTC its still too lengthy, complicated and shady, especially for a big company - the volatility risk is also too big ATM. As absurd as it sounds, right now the only solution would be the one I was proposed, which was to fly to Argentina to pick up a suitcase full of pesos (an alternative would be dollars bought in the black market, but that is too risky and thus out of the question for a legit company trying to transfer a big amount of $).

On the contrary my friend in South America is using BTC to move some money back and forth, but still he couldn't make his relatives to understand how to safely "cash out" without my help.

Making a long story short, the potential is all there but the current infrastructure its not good enough to realize that potential. Bitcoin *can* be a revolution indeed, but it still has a long way to go.

What I do not agree with is with the statement that BTC being decentralized and trust-free is only "ideological" stuff with no utility. No sir, not at all. Those characteristics has the potential to solve very real, daily problems for millions of people on the planet.