Quote from: dominicus on August 07, 2013, 01:57:40 AM

snip

If people don't want to conserve the environment without government, why would they want to with? If the point is not ultimately, "I don't care because I want to force people to do X instead of doing Y", then I'm not following; PETA could also make this argument; the hooded order could make this argument; anyone with any ideology at all could make this argument. Yes, we can use government for any purpose we so desire; we could even kill all the Jews because fuck all, if we think it's right, we think everyone should think it's right--am I right? Is it simply an unfortunate truth that preservation of the environment can only be achieved through force, or are we turning a blind eye to alternative methods of changing people's minds?

Further, isn't privately owned land technically the same as publicly owned land if it is owned by government? And if the government is merely a collection of people who decide, invariably, what they will do on their private land, then the initial question is presented again: If people don't want to conserve the environment without government, why would they want to with? For, it would seem to me, if we truly wanted to, we would be doing so right now, without need of government intervention, and the business owners who, of course, rely on our business, refuse to help us in our cause, would go swiftly out of business without our help--that is, except if there's still swathes of people who don't believe in your cause, which would be the case if the environment is still in extreme danger. Therefore, your problem is still there: your problem is to change minds. Without this, government or not, you can expect to achieve nothing, no matter what you fight for.

Quote from: smscotten on August 07, 2013, 02:13:48 AM

dominicus, in a theoretical perfect world where we could track every molecule we might have success tying ecological health to property rights. "Waitaminnit, that's my water you're poisoning. I'm taking you to court, buddy."

And if someone gets poisonous chemicals into your food at home? Castle doctrine. Time to get your gun.

Don't we know where fluoride comes from? Tongue