Quote from: senseless on August 13, 2013, 03:32:23 PM

Quote from: Bitcoinorama on August 13, 2013, 03:25:41 PM

Quote from: senseless on August 13, 2013, 03:21:08 PM

Quote from: Bitcoinorama on August 13, 2013, 02:36:09 PM

No the above was very much in topic as this 'deal' is a means to sway your judgement without thinking clearly.

They offer No refund until January. None.

They have your funds, if they f**k up, they promise to return monies, but have no third party to guarantee it.

You are basically acting on their word they can deliver on time.

They have offered no compelling evidence to believe this, and there is nothing backing you up if they can't, or don't succeed.

There are several companies copying the KnC method of bringing a device to market straight from receipt of chips as a prototype.

None of these competing companies have met the strict requirements of a third party totally independent Issuing Bank and Payment processor.

None of these competing companies have the backing of Paypal, except Butterfly Labs, of which this is starting to become a very welcome avenue for disgruntled BFL customers.

None of these competing companies are assuming the risk involved with a credit card payment processor and promising the buyer protection from these independent third party bodies.

None of these competing companies are offering any real buyer protection (and BFL are trying their damnedest to change their terms and wriggle out of the responsibility).

I wouldn't ever use a credit card processor for bitcoin hardware. I've had legitimate (non-fraud customers), purchase something, or use a service, then charge back even after 90 days. For a machine that prints money the risk of people using a fraudulent credit card is even higher. For merchants, users not being able to claw back money is one of the pluses for bitcoin. If you're not sure if someone is legit or not, then don't buy.

Judging by the amount of scams, and reputedly safe bets such as BFL and Avalon and the enormous amount of funding raised through pre-orders that is very poor and inconsiderate advice. The name 'senseless' seems apt here. Both BFL and Bitsyncom/Avalon are sitting on tens of millions of dollars worth of pre-order funding, each!

Chargebacks, approx $35 amount to a minor percentage and a is a risk to the merchant that pales in comparioson to that of the vast sums asked from the consumer.

Credit card fraud is assumed by the payment processor, not the merchant.

So don't buy into unknown companies. Do your due diligence on the team and the people involved. What is more alarming is that people continue to buy into some companies who have questionable pasts with regards to felony convictions. What sounds more senseless, saying that people should do due diligence, or people who continue to buy after said due diligence is done?

Further, credit card fraud is not assumed by the payment processor. Each instance of a charge back yield a 25-50$ fee to the merchant plus the monies that were clawed back. If you receive enough charge backs or fraudulent orders the payment processor will just turn off your account. It sounds like you're not really aware of how those things work. The only ones who don't add an additional fee are third party services which include fraud verification such as paypal. But that doesn't stop someone from running away with the money and the product you shipped.

I do know how these things work, it depends on the agreement you negotiate with the intermediaries. Chargebacks are minimal in the scheme of things. We are talking about taking individual payments worth thousands of dollars that total the millions. A few $35 chargebacks here and there are negligible.

In any case this 'buyer protection' outlined here, very much the same as X-crowds 'escrow' is to secure and lock in funds. There's no protection anything will arrive on time, or be delivered. None.

They just want to prevent you from making informed choices once competitors bring products to market. There is absolutely no reason not to give you the option of a no quibble refund at anytime, as opposed to January by the earliest *if* they are confident they can deliver. Fact.

They are evidently not confident they can deliver on time, or they would offer no-quibble refunds and credit card payment through a known payment processor, like their 'official sponsor' stated he had illegally engaged and taken advantage of with KnC when he decided to make fraudulent card purchases, and earning them an unnecessary chargeback;

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262052.msg2895937#msg2895937

Quote from: cypherdoc on August 09, 2013, 04:55:29 AM

yes, then don't order.

in fact, you can blame me for advising them not to take cc's. like i said in my thread, i had orders of 3 Jupiter's in at KNC, and 8 H boards with BitFury. i never intended to order that many as a whole simply b/c i was playing the Ms. Fickle game of hedging my bets across multiple companies fully intending to cancel all but one order with whom i deemed the winner in my orderbook in the end. so i artificially inflated the internal expectations at both these companies about what the demand was going to be going forward.