Let's just set out a few facts here:
I specifically asked KnCMiner about this point of their terms and conditions:
So, it appears they're effectively trying to safeguard themselves against "ordinary consumer rights legislation" but I don't think that their T&C is valid if in contrast with the EU law. I'm not a lawyer but I think there is the possibility that pretending to apply business rules to consumers by means of their T&C (the contract) could be deemed as an "unfair contract term".
Obviously, since every "EU law" is actually an "EU directive", what makes a (legal) point is Sweden's implementation of the consumer rights EU directives.
By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.
This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).
The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).
if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...
Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.
Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity
Of course I am serious.
This contract doesn't change your tax status vis à vis your Taxman, but it means you misrepresented yourself with the intent to gain access to a certain category of equipment you cannot buy as a consumer. That makes you the "bad guy" of the two and if you're trying to pull a "consumer" on them, that's also a breach of contract. Either which puts you on the wrong side of good in case of litigation.
All I'm saying is, if you feel you'll need "consumer protection", check with a lawyer in your country. The "...but I'm really a consumer" argument doesn't stick where I am, so it's likely to fail elsewhere as well.
As far as I'm concerned, this is all a big gamble in which no one really knows what's going on so be ready to loose all your money and hedge your bets.
Carl from KNCMiner clearly states they are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
About three posts later in that thread, bitcoinorama posted a message (August 09, 2013, 12:50:10 AM). SO HE HAS MOST DEFINITELY READ THE MESSAGE. He has it from a KNCMiner employee that the reason they are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
Let's fast forward to my question yesterday, where I asked the very same question. I hadn't read the above post at that point, so was entirely reliant on someone giving me an honest answer:
In the beginning they KnC had to apply to EVERY EU country for a business tax code, otherwise they were limited as to how much they could sell to each country (UK max would have been £70k inc. VAT).
This was laborious and ongoing as they opened for pre-orders.
Perhaps that was why?
Bitcoinorama is spreading BS and lies. He saw the message from KNC Carl on 8th August, but is now playing the dummy. His usual PR, trying to tell everyone they are protected for years, even though a KNC employee has clearly stated customers are not - they are being treated as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
Bitcoinorama is entirely dishonest. He works very hard to discredit KS, who has done his research and has proved KNC are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
I'll quote KS from yesterday, as I believe it much more actual truth than anything Bitcoinorama has ever said:
So beware of Bitcoinorama. He is not being honest with people at all. He is fully aware KNC are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase, but makes up all kinds of BS to the opposite to deliberately mislead people.
He's doing that because he's either got some mental issues and feels the need to control how people think about knc and their products and how "safe" it is to purchase from them. Or? I'll leave you to decide.
I'm sure he'll come on here and say "Oh, I forget" or "I didn't see that" (even though he posted in the same thread just before and just after that debate. And anybody who posts on this thread knows he is always monitoring it). And for someone who has obsessively spent 717 hours on the forum since he joined 4 months ago, you know he has!
Although he likes to seem helpful, he cannot be trusted. He distorts the truth and misleads. You have been warned.
Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).
First they strictly treat you as a business customer:
"1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."
First they strictly treat you as a business customer:
"1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."
I specifically asked KnCMiner about this point of their terms and conditions:
Quote from: Me
Q: Hi,
I read the following clause in your terms and conditions page:
"1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby
accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."
What does this implies?
I don't have an EU VAT number, can I still buy your products as a private individual?
I read the following clause in your terms and conditions page:
"1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby
accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."
What does this implies?
I don't have an EU VAT number, can I still buy your products as a private individual?
Quote from: KnCMiner
A: Hi,
Yes you can still buy our products. What it means is that we don't sell consumer goods and therefore you as a customer are expected to have made an informed decision. Ordinary consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase. Instead the terms and conditions regulate warranty etc.
Thanks,
Carl
Yes you can still buy our products. What it means is that we don't sell consumer goods and therefore you as a customer are expected to have made an informed decision. Ordinary consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase. Instead the terms and conditions regulate warranty etc.
Thanks,
Carl
So, it appears they're effectively trying to safeguard themselves against "ordinary consumer rights legislation" but I don't think that their T&C is valid if in contrast with the EU law. I'm not a lawyer but I think there is the possibility that pretending to apply business rules to consumers by means of their T&C (the contract) could be deemed as an "unfair contract term".
Obviously, since every "EU law" is actually an "EU directive", what makes a (legal) point is Sweden's implementation of the consumer rights EU directives.
By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.
This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).
The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).
if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...
Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.
Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity
Of course I am serious.
This contract doesn't change your tax status vis à vis your Taxman, but it means you misrepresented yourself with the intent to gain access to a certain category of equipment you cannot buy as a consumer. That makes you the "bad guy" of the two and if you're trying to pull a "consumer" on them, that's also a breach of contract. Either which puts you on the wrong side of good in case of litigation.
All I'm saying is, if you feel you'll need "consumer protection", check with a lawyer in your country. The "...but I'm really a consumer" argument doesn't stick where I am, so it's likely to fail elsewhere as well.
As far as I'm concerned, this is all a big gamble in which no one really knows what's going on so be ready to loose all your money and hedge your bets.
Carl from KNCMiner clearly states they are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
About three posts later in that thread, bitcoinorama posted a message (August 09, 2013, 12:50:10 AM). SO HE HAS MOST DEFINITELY READ THE MESSAGE. He has it from a KNCMiner employee that the reason they are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
Let's fast forward to my question yesterday, where I asked the very same question. I hadn't read the above post at that point, so was entirely reliant on someone giving me an honest answer:
1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.
Why sell to hobbists/consumers, yet make the hobbists/consumers agree they are a business?
Why sell to hobbists/consumers, yet make the hobbists/consumers agree they are a business?
In the beginning they KnC had to apply to EVERY EU country for a business tax code, otherwise they were limited as to how much they could sell to each country (UK max would have been £70k inc. VAT).
This was laborious and ongoing as they opened for pre-orders.
Perhaps that was why?
Bitcoinorama is spreading BS and lies. He saw the message from KNC Carl on 8th August, but is now playing the dummy. His usual PR, trying to tell everyone they are protected for years, even though a KNC employee has clearly stated customers are not - they are being treated as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
Bitcoinorama is entirely dishonest. He works very hard to discredit KS, who has done his research and has proved KNC are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
I'll quote KS from yesterday, as I believe it much more actual truth than anything Bitcoinorama has ever said:
Official EU 2" year warranty": http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/ecc/consumer_topics/buying_goods_services_en.htm
Full brochure: http://ec.europa.eu/archives/publications/booklets/move/64/index_en.htm
Business "consumer rights" are defined in the contract (for KNCMINER contract = T&C). Here's KNCMINER 1 year warranty:
"6.1 KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification for a period of twelve (12) months (...)"
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc
The "consumer rights" for businesses are basically that you get what you ordered and that it should work reasonably well (unless there are more exclusion clauses in the contract). If you're not happy, you either bargain with the seller (if you're lucky) or you sue (the rest of the time). A business vs business lawsuit is not the same as consumer vs business one. The consumer is over-protected, while the business is not (and a lot of haggling of the contract will ensue). Anyway, suing is really mostly money lost and time wasted. (Cost of doing business).
BTCOrama could do HIS due diligence and confirm what I said with a lawyer of his choice.
edit: fixed link
Full brochure: http://ec.europa.eu/archives/publications/booklets/move/64/index_en.htm
Business "consumer rights" are defined in the contract (for KNCMINER contract = T&C). Here's KNCMINER 1 year warranty:
"6.1 KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification for a period of twelve (12) months (...)"
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc
The "consumer rights" for businesses are basically that you get what you ordered and that it should work reasonably well (unless there are more exclusion clauses in the contract). If you're not happy, you either bargain with the seller (if you're lucky) or you sue (the rest of the time). A business vs business lawsuit is not the same as consumer vs business one. The consumer is over-protected, while the business is not (and a lot of haggling of the contract will ensue). Anyway, suing is really mostly money lost and time wasted. (Cost of doing business).
BTCOrama could do HIS due diligence and confirm what I said with a lawyer of his choice.
edit: fixed link
So beware of Bitcoinorama. He is not being honest with people at all. He is fully aware KNC are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase, but makes up all kinds of BS to the opposite to deliberately mislead people.
He's doing that because he's either got some mental issues and feels the need to control how people think about knc and their products and how "safe" it is to purchase from them. Or? I'll leave you to decide.
I'm sure he'll come on here and say "Oh, I forget" or "I didn't see that" (even though he posted in the same thread just before and just after that debate. And anybody who posts on this thread knows he is always monitoring it). And for someone who has obsessively spent 717 hours on the forum since he joined 4 months ago, you know he has!
Although he likes to seem helpful, he cannot be trusted. He distorts the truth and misleads. You have been warned.