Quote from: k9quaint on August 21, 2013, 04:12:18 AM

Quote from: bcp19 on August 21, 2013, 03:53:32 AM

1) If I were german and paid for an ebay order through paypal with Duetche marks it would be converted to USD (or some other fiat) and credited to the seller. When asking for a refund, that USD (or other fiat) would be removed from the sellers account and the Marks would be credited back to mine yes, we get back what we paid, and yes, exchange rates may have shifted, but that's like 1%.

Nope. You get exactly the number of Marks, Dollars, Pesos, etc that you put in. They use the exchange rate at the time of the purchase, not the time of the refund.

From Paypal's website
Refunds are performed using the exchange rate which was current at the time of the original payment.

Quote from: bcp19 on August 21, 2013, 03:53:32 AM

2) According to what I read, the PREORDER money you are referring to was not spent ON RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT, WHICH IS UNDERSTANDABLE, but to assume as you are that none would be used to purchase the products needed to create the parts in question is laughable. How on earth could any startup company take 100's of millions of dollars of orders and not spend a cent of it on the materials to make the parts? Did Avalon only take 10% on it's preorders? Are all the other ASIC companies taking only 10% on their preorders?

They are called factor loans. Also, they could get investors. The usual route is to get a factor loan to buy the parts and then manufacture and ship the product. If they can't get one, that is a big red flag.

Quote from: bcp19 on August 21, 2013, 03:53:32 AM

What world do you live in? Try placing a special order sometime... most places require payment up front and have a 15% restocking fee if you cancel the order after it comes in. Whether you think so or not, that is basically what these pre-orders are, special orders. The materials to build them has been ordered and paid for and now people want their money back.

No. These are not specialized one off devices produced for a single individual. This is mass produced hardware.

Quote from: bcp19 on August 21, 2013, 03:53:32 AM

3) Wow, just wow... Let's stop and think... WHY did BFL refuse refunds in BTC? Maybe because people were being unreasonable. "I paid 500 BTC and I want 500 BTC back (mainly because that $3000 is not worth $50000!!!!!)"

That is not unreasonable. That is business. If you hold someone's funds in escrow, you give them back what they put in. 500 BTC is worth 500 BTC, I don't care how many Euros or Dollars or Renmimbi it is worth.

Quote from: bcp19 on August 21, 2013, 03:53:32 AM

If you paid 10,000 BTC (worth $60,000USD in June 2012) and BFL kept it as BTC and the price today was $3 pre BTC, WOULD YOU ACCEPT YOUR 10,000BTC BACK or would you call them a scam and demand 20,000 BTC cause you spend $60,000?

I spent 10,000 BTC. It was worth 500,000,000 Zimbabwean dollars and when I asked for a refund it was worth 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Zimbabwean dollars so why wouldn't I be happy? Z$500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is way more than Z$500,000,000, so I came out ahead right?

If they hold that 10,000 BTC in escrow and I asked for a refund and then they refunded my 10,000 BTC, I would have to be happy they gave it back. BTC is money. If you hold someone's money for them, you don't play exchange rate games with them. If BFL wasn't prepared to assume the risk of holding BTC, then they shouldn't have offered to take it and hold it for 12 months.

you repeated back exactly what I said, even though you misunderstood what I said. YES PAYPAL REFUNDS WHAT WAS SPEND EXACTLY. Matters not that exchange rates could have shifted. THIS IS BECAUSE WE ARE DEALING WITH FIAT VS FIAT X was removed and Y was credited... then Y was removed and X was credited. BTC is still not FIAT, while considered a currency by some it still holds status as a commodity. Far as I remember, the pricing on BFL's website read USD and they would accept BTC in the amount of that USD. This implies conversion.

You did not answer my question, WHAT ASIC COMPANIES ARE TAKING DEPOSITS FOR PREORDERS? In your words then every ASIC preorder from EVERY company is a RED FLAG.

Special orders are not "1-off devices produced for a single individual'. Go to Home Depot and try to order a Sauna. Since it is not IN STOCK they classify it as SPECIAL ORDER, yet it is part of their catalog and has to be paid in advance IN FULL. Considering they have a warehouse filled with them they ship from, it is not specialty built, but still a special order. They have hundreds even thousands of them, but it's not sent to the store until ordered. Kind of similar to the devices BFL is producing but they have ordered the parts and made a pre-built kit compared to BFLs ordering parts and building to order.

Yet again, you are talking about BTC as a viable currency. When Paypal accepts BTC as a viable currency I will accept your argument. When EBAY accepts BTC as a viable currency I will accept your argument. Up until that time, you are selling a commodity for the USD funds needed to make a purchase. BFL is simply being kind enough to reconvert the USD funds back into BTC to refund it to you. YOU GOT THE SAME VALUE BACK. PERIOD.

The ONLY and I repeat ONLY way your argument is valid is if BFL did not take varying amounts of BTC for their miners over time. If they said at the beginning "29BTC for a Jalapeno" and stuck with that regardless of USD value, then yes, your point is valid and they should refund you your 29 BTC. Since the BTC 'price' VARIED while the USD price remained the same. YOUR POINT IS INVALID. USD was the operating currency and by purchasing with whatever method you used, you accepted USD as that currency. The only escrow needed to be held is USD as that is what they asked for.

I notice you deleted the sale of stock example and did not comment on it, probably because you realize it was correct and admitting that would damaged your case. BTC is not a viable currency and is not recognized by Paypal or Ebay as such.