Quote from: Rassah on July 04, 2011, 06:01:22 AM

Problem with China has more to do with corporations polluting other people's property (air space), and the legal system not being willing to defend them.

First you propose a completely free market, then you say that it should be the State through legislation that prevents corporations from polluting.

You see the logical fallacy right there?

The free market doesn't ensure in any way the well being of people.

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As for the water example, nobody used to pay for clean water, because until about 100 to 200 years ago we did't have clean water. As for not paying for water at all, we've been paying for water since the dawn of civilization. It was a scarce and expensive thing in the Biblical middle east and other ancient desert cultures.

We did have clean water in past, the process of capillarity through the soil cleans the water perfectly and brings it up to the mountains. Today the soil and the water are polluted to the point that you need to filter the water to make it potable.

The profit-based market created this problem.

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I don't really know how to fix it, other than vote the politicians out, boycott the corporations (like people are doing with BP), and bring mass class-action lawsuits against corporations. But this is actually a problem that's even bigger for TZM: The biggest problem will be that people will always seek profit, and thus, even in a TZM syste, someone will find a way to corrupt politicians to make sure they can have more "needs" than others.

No, they won't, if you change the incentives and if being corrupt is not "profitable" by design. I explained this before, and I'll explain it again in the video I'm preparing.

So, again, the free market doesn't solve this.

So far nobody has provided a decent explanation on how to free market is supposed to provide the basic needs for human well being to everybody and to ensure the survival of the species.

Face it, the profit-based market has failed and it's flawed at its very core.

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How can you believe that, when profit and making money has been behind things like cars, planes, phones, computers, automated robotic machines, drugs and medical treatments, and a whole slew of other things that have taken us out of the dark ages? Are you proposing that the only good "well being" way to live is to work on a farm with 0 technology?

I can't believe how misinformed this sentence shows. Have you been reading ONE page of the TZM proposals?

As for inventions, watch this:
http://vimeo.com/21516444

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I think as long as you guys don't realize that seeking profit IS attempting to maximize the well being on oneself and one's stakeholders, you'll just keep wishing for a utopia based on essentially communist ideas, not even understanding what it is you are attacking, or the pitfalls of what you are proposing. After all, corporate profit means that many people/customers who needed things (food, medicine, technology) had their needs fulfilled, that lenders, employees, and all taxes that support the government and social programs are paid, and that there is still enough left (the profit part) to make sure that many people who invested in the company are better off and are able to pay for their needs too.

It's not about what i think, it's about what is it, and what can be showed.

I showed how the profit motive creates wars, unnecessary suffering, differential advantage, inefficiencies, pollution, inequality.

Do you have any proof to support your claim, beside philosophically wishes?