Quote from: FirstAscent on October 14, 2013, 03:01:46 AM

Quote from: TECSHARE on October 14, 2013, 02:19:40 AM

Hitler was an environmentalist too. You know why? It was another mechanism for control and subjugation of the people.

Actually, the goal is to protect the environment. It's not about controlling people to have a power trip.

It's the immediate and short-term harm done to others during this "protecting the environment" that pisses people off. It's one thing to try to treat the situation gently, and take that harm into consideration and minimize it (maybe even providing compensation.) It's when you dismiss all that and callously tell them "either take Environment 101 & 102 minimum, or shut up and let me dictate your life" that you're going to get backlash. And regardless of your goal, at that point, yeah, it IS about controlling people, even if not for a power trip. It's about controlling them "to save humanity/the planet."

And if the fallback goal (after "education" fails) is to try to control people for the good of the planet, that's a message that environmental activists really, really need to take seriously and try to sell better. Frankly, according to this study most of them should stop their continuing research into environmental issues and start taking lessons in public relations; the cost/benefit analysis for the latter is much more favorable for them at this point.

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 14, 2013, 03:47:16 PM

They don't care how it benefits society as a whole.

If it doesn't provide them or their descendants at least some benefit, long-term or otherwise, then why should they care?

Any proposal that won't ever provide them or their loved ones and descendants some benefit (even if it's just an objectively "better world") is a scam, an attempt to coerce them into doing something to their detriment just so some stranger you think is suitable can benefit. (EDIT: And again, because I suspect it needs to be said, we're not talking about polluting others' property, we're talking about what they do on *their own land*.)

If the proposal does provide some benefit, then you don't need to talk about "the benefit to society as a whole." Talk about the benefit to them. Suddenly, you're actually focusing on the individual people involved, and you might actually get some positive feedback and wind up motivating them.