Quote from: BADecker on April 18, 2018, 03:27:29 PM

Quote from: Astargath on April 18, 2018, 01:55:49 PM

Quote from: CoinCube on April 18, 2018, 02:37:54 AM

Quote from: Astargath on April 16, 2018, 10:39:58 PM

See that's the problem, if God is real and the only proof left for his existence is a book, I would expect that book to have something different from other books like explaining in detail how we have free will or the rules of heaven, instead you have catholics, baptists, orthodox and a ton more, interpreting the book their own way.

1. If that's really the case that also means all kind of rapists, murderers are given that chance too and you find yourself in heaven with all of them, you did good all your life and they didn't and yet you are in the same place, what was the point of life on earth anyways then? Why is this not clearly explained in the bible?

2. No it doesn't. The point is, how is god going to prevent humans from committing sin in heaven, it is not explained in the bible as usual.

3. A god omnipotent and all powerful certainly would not care or need to be worshiped at all.

4. Although you can fully repent, how can god prevent the person from committing a sin afterwards.

After several pages of back and forth we are getting into some very deep questions. With that said I will share my incomplete and partial thoughts.

I agree with you in part on point #3. An omnipotent being would certainly not need worship of any kind. The need to the degree it exists would go entirely in the other direction.

I do not claim know the answer to #2 and #4. I think they logically follow from the concept of heaven but any details are certainly far beyond my understanding. The answer may have something to do with willingly surrendering ones free will to God what Rabbi Moishe described above as freedom from choice. The answer may also have something to to with genuinely seeking redemption, salvation, and forgiveness followed by some form of divine purification. There are also less optimistic possibilities. I do not know.

No one does only good all of their life or at least no one I have ever met. What we have instead is varying degrees of corruption. The worst of us can be thought of as pig like wallowing gleefully and deliberately into deep cesspools their bodies and faces covered with layer upon layer of filth caked into solid sheets covering even their eyes.

The very best of us can be thought of as men walking through such a mud pit trying desperately to wipe the splashing mud out of their eyes shaking it off whenever possible and always looking for the firmer ground. Striving for cleanliness but objectively still filthy.

What has to change before either of these two could be given free access to a pristine home?

It may appears that it would be better if the answer was simply provided for us in clear irrefutable and irresistible terms but that may not be true. Maybe the most important part of the process is the journey towards the answer.

If I set up a shower outside of my home which of the two men could I allow free access inside? One, both, or none?

''Maybe the most important part of the process is the journey towards the answer.'' Atheists and non believers seem to care more about the journey than religious people who accept everything said in the bible without any question. ''It may appears that it would be better if the answer was simply provided for us in clear irrefutable and irresistible terms but that may not be true.'' I don't really see why not. If I want to convince my daughter that I'm alive and I exist, isn't the best way to just do it? Why would god put more weight on blind faith instead of reason, the answer is simple, he doesn't, religions and god are a fraud, that's why I can come up with 20 different questions that you can't answer, the bible can't answer and yet I'm supposed to somehow just trust god, right? Nah.

God doesn't place more emphasis on blind faith than on reason. If God did this, He would have not created the universe. Rather, he would have created a bunch of non-embodied spirits, and then let them attempt to figure out some form of body on their own by faith alone... which they couldn't have done because of their lack of imagination.

All of the universe exists to train people to use their faith to make things happen like God does. But people are such infants that it will take them most or all of eternity to figure out how to use faith, even though they have the abundant examples of the universe. The examples of the universe are the things that make for visible faith rather than blind faith.

Cool

Yes he does otherwise you wouldn't need to believe in god to go to heaven. In fact atheists should go to heaven instead of theists because they are the ones using reason to find out the truth. Unlike theists that believe what they are told without ever trying to find proof or evidence.

How do you train yourself to use ''faith'' exactly? Faith: ''strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof'' Every baptist has faith in his religion just like every Catholic or orthodox or muslim or christian. They all have faith in different things and yet not all of them can be right, clearly faith is not working, is it? How would we ever know which one is correct if we are only using faith? Don't you see how stupid that is?