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Quote from: sublime5447 on November 05, 2013, 05:22:38 PM

To the value is subjective so it is okay that the unit of value is subjective crowd.

Value is subjective to the individual but objective to mankind.. I can say I dont value water because I am not thirsty, I can never say that mankind doesnt value water.

Further the measure of the subjective nature of value is called price!!!!

And price is measured by currency. And Bitcoin is currency. So what's the problem?

You can't have an objective measure of value that is disconnected from price. It's just not possible. Gold is a joke. Fiat currencies are inherently flawed. The "accounting" profession is a total fraud. What else is there? Nothing. That's why we have Bitcoin.

Like I said, in fifty years, price and value will likely converge in Bitcoin anyways. If you can come up with an "objective" measure of value between now and then, more power to you. Odds are you won't. It's a hard problem. So just accept that Bitcoin is a currency in the short term, and (hopefully) an objective measure of value in the long term.

You will never get me to believe that you can have a system of measurement without a UNIT of measurement.

Bitcoin IS the unit of measurement. It seems so unmoored only beause it's trying to measure something that is subjective, the value of products and services. The measurement system still requires the pricing mechanisim that a live trade market provides, and even that is only valid momentarily.

No it isn't. The reason it is so unmoored is because it is not a unit. Units are a constant that are definable. It is unstable in the same way that measurement of length was before an inch was defined.

Price is the representation of the change in subjective value, the currency is supposed to be the constant that it measured against.

So under your definition pretty much every major economy is operating on something that is not a currency. The US dollar doesn't fit your definition. It is a completely silly argument.
'Unit' defined for currencies IS an abstract. You're conflating the constant of the abstract unit with a constant of physical unit. 1 Dollar is 100 cents. Dollar is the unit, cents are fractions of that unit. 1 Bitcoin, it is a unit that can fractionally be used down to .00000001. It is defined.
The value of the unit is not constant under ANY currency system.
In fact, I would argue that bitcoin fits the definition of currency better than the US dollar because it has greater definition. The monetary base in the US is indeterminate in the future, yet the path of bitcoins being introduced to the economy is definite.

I'm pretty sure you're just trolling, but I thought I'd say something just in case someone was taking you seriously.

No I am not trolling.

It isnt my definition it is the definition.

No "currency" that is currently used is actually currency. The US dollar is a unit in the same way that the human foot was a unit when we measured length with body parts. That is to say that it is a puesdo- unit. That is the problem at the heart of the global monetary system in it's current state. It is a system of measurement without a unit of measurement.

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Unit' defined for currencies IS an abstract"

for the last 40 years it has been. The world has been living a lie.

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The value of the unit is not constant under ANY currency system

. The UNIT is always the same it is human perception that changes. Price is the representation of the subjective nature of value. Currency is supposed to be the constant that it is measured against.

One bitcoin is the monetary unit of the bitcoin system. The value of it is dependent of opinions of all the users, and hence is fluctuating.

You are confusing it with the unit of account. This is one of the functions of money. Why count your money? A merchant needs that to compare prices and to know whether his last actions where profitable. If he does not have a unit of account, he can not decide what is the best action in the future, buy a new batch of wares to sell? If it was profitable last time yes, or maybe buy twice as much.

The unit of account should be as stable as possible. He should use a type of money that is stable. If the question is day to day trading, fiat is good for that. If you want to calculate your options, for instance sell a house after 20 years of ownership, dollar is not good enough. If you calculate in BTC, a profit of 1 BTC for a year says nothing, it depends heavily on what time of the year that BTC was earned. Was it january this year, or september this year? Huge difference. The best unit of account currently is probably a inflation adjusted dollar, and for the future, a dollar adjusted for inflation expection. Just know what inflation indicator you use.

The point with the unit of account function, is that the merchant and customers decide for themselves what unit to use. It is not necessary to use the unit of the currency he uses for payments. In fact, for international trade, you have to choose one of several used for payments. No need to use BTC as a unit of account, maybe after bitcoin is fully implemented in the world economy.

The ability to be used as a unit of account is what separates currency from collectibles.

Baseball cards are a store of value and a medium of exchange. So are all collectibles

Bitcoin is a collectible. Not a currency.