Quote from: realr0ach on April 20, 2018, 10:32:44 AM

Quote from: HairyMaclairy on April 20, 2018, 09:58:31 AM

Also have learned something today which is that libertarians basically just want to be left alone.

Libertarianism is a theoretical system that works on paper but is 100% invalid in the real world because it's impossible to function in a closed ecosystem (the current state of earth). In practice, all libertarianism is is one moron campaigning for unilateral disarmament of whatever tribe or human settlement he lives in or was born into, while the odds of all potentially hostile external settlements doing the same thing at the same time is virtually zero. You are in effect just opening the door to your civilization while rolling out a red carpet that says "come kill, steal, or enslave us".

Libertarianism literally is nothing more than a renamed version of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Whether you believe the protocols are fiction or non-fiction doesn't matter, they are 100% correct:

Quote from: r0ach on December 25, 2016, 01:51:40 AM

14. In any State in which there is a bad organization of authority, an impersonality of laws and of the rulers who have lost their personality amid the flood of rights ever multiplying out of liberalism, I find a new right - to attack by the right of the strong, and to scatter to the winds all existing forces of order and regulation, to reconstruct all institutions and to become the sovereign lord of those who have left to us the rights of their power by laying them down voluntarily in their liberalism.

6. Political freedom is an idea but not a fact. This idea one must know how to apply whenever it appears necessary with this bait of an idea to attract the masses of the people to one's party for the purpose of crushing another who is in authority. This task is rendered easier if the opponent has himself been infected with the idea of freedom, SO-CALLED LIBERALISM, and, for the sake of an idea, is willing to yield some of his power. It is precisely here that the triumph of our theory appears; the slackened reins of government are immediately, by the law of life, caught up and gathered together by a new hand, because the blind might of the nation cannot for one single day exist without guidance, and the new authority merely fits into the place of the old already weakened by liberalism."

Many in the post-Ron Paul era - although probably unable to convey this reality in words - know this is subconsciously true and have moved on looking for better solutions, usually involving the only known functional frameworks of human existence over the last several thousand years - homogeneous, ethnocentric city-states (aka things like the alt-right).

The struggle for individual freedom is a quality that unconsciously all will admire even those stomping all over it will have it in their hearts has a guilty secret. They will know in their soul they were wrong when the time to be judged. Might is right. There is nothing new in that. Throughout your life and struggle may see your nation be overcome by another even worse state. I don't like the thought of siding with a mighty facist movement to overcome some kind of slightly weaker other ideology. So yes the struggle for your own freedom might be futile, it might make your own current bully of a state weaker and allow a stronger bully of a state to take over. But one bully is much the same as another. Read Animal Farm.

I liked Hairy Maclairy's view better. Its not easy to admit seeing the other side of a debate. Hats off.