Quote from: figmentofmyass on April 28, 2018, 07:31:43 PM

Quote from: Zin-Zang on April 28, 2018, 03:38:17 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on April 27, 2018, 11:26:51 PM

Quote from: Zin-Zang on April 27, 2018, 02:36:01 PM

All Lightning nodes in the US will be forced to register as banks, thinking that they will be allowed to run a private bank without adhering to the AML ,
shows either a innocence or a stupidity on how things in the US work.

that seems doubtful. routing transactions doesn't equate to being a party to them. LN pre-images are just bitcoin transactions that aren't published to the blockchain. you realize that bitcoin nodes propagate many thousands of transactions across the network every day, right? if bitcoin nodes aren't financial institutions, how are LN nodes?

People that run Bitcoin Nodes are routing transactions , they are not creating their own separate note for the transactions.

However people that run LN Hubs
are holding/locking bitcoins and using their own hub created LN Notes to make transactions.

In the old days
Banks
hold your gold (now worthless fiat) , and use their own created Bank notes (Checks) to make transactions.

Both hold something of value and then make their own notes to make transactions.

LN Hub is by definition a bank as it was designed to be.

no, that's inaccurate. intermediaries on LN are not creating new transactions. they are not issuing "notes" or "checks" or anything like that. they are only routing transactions, like bitcoin nodes. the only difference is they are routing transactions via their established channels rather than propagating them to any and all connected nodes.

It is a Promise to Pay , It is the Same, No matter what your wishes.

Quote from: Zin-Zang on April 28, 2018, 03:38:17 AM

Banks & LN
Create their own notes for transactions
Both Charge Fees & Penalties
Both can seize control over the held asset under certain conditions
Both can refuse payment to 3rd parties if they so choose.

as pointed out, there are no "bank notes" in LN. there is no trust involved.

miners charge fees on the bitcoin network too. so what? the only "penalties" are if you're dishonest and try to broadcast a stale channel state to the blockchain. if someone can prove that you just tried to steal their coins, yes you can be penalized.

no one can seize control over the collateral unless:

your private keys get compromised (same as bitcoin)
you don't monitor channel states and thus permit others to steal your coins
you broadcast a stale channel state attempting to steal others coins

how will LN intermediaries know which transactions to censor? and you know bitcoin miners can censor transactions too, right?

They will receive a ban list, which can include IPs or address or specific LN Hubs.
Bitcoin Miners can only block transactions from being included in the blockchain and that takes collusion of over 51%, they can not charge penalties and they can not seize the asset like a Bank/LN can. It only takes a few LN hubs to censor the entire LN Network since it is many times more Centralized than the BTC Network.

Quote from: Zin-Zang on April 28, 2018, 03:38:17 AM

** LN Hub transactions are nothing more than a promise by the hub that ownership of the underlying asset (BTC) will be granted to the payee upon request.**

no. all LN collateral is cryptographically secured. a channel participant can close the channel and broadcast the last state to the blockchain. as long as bitcoin miners will confirm the resulting transaction, the funds will be released. if you are saying bitcoin miners won't confirm the transaction, your gripe is with bitcoin, not LN.

Now you're just being foolish, when a person requests a channel to be closed, that is equal to the underlying asset (BTC) will be granted to the payee upon request .

You can say no , all you want the fact is the US Gov has LN hubs by the banking license balls whenever they feel like it.
Ignore this at your own risk of jail time.

Tell you what ,
you start an LN Hub and post your IP , I will forward that info on to https://www2.occ.gov/ (Comptroller of the Currency US Treasury Department)
Then we can all see if you get away with it or get sent to jail for it.