Quote from: patvarilly on July 16, 2011, 08:45:16 PM

Quote from: John Smith on July 16, 2011, 09:16:06 AM

Quote from: patvarilly on July 16, 2011, 09:01:57 AM

But I really hope that an alternative to Bitcoin does emerge, one that isn't drowning in libertarian/anarcho-capitalist kool-aid and does not shoot itself in the foot with fringe, unworkable economics.

Right. But which of those is a *technical* issue with bitcoin? You're too conflating fringe political motives of some forum members with the technical direction (and usefulness) of the project. No alternative software has to be introduced to tone down the loonies, as there is no license agreement that says "you have to be libertarian to use this".

I've learned to simply ignore the meandering political ramblings (e.g., Atlas & co), and I agree that this by itself doesn't affect the project in any meaningful way (except, perhaps, scaring off more serious investors/contributors). It's just annoying, and if the libertarians simply produced a product that I could use without having to have my ear chewed off with their world-domination blather, I'd be perfectly happy to use it.

The portion that to me is really a shame is how, on top of the technically beautiful system for solving double-spending and building consensus on a network that lacks trust, has been layered a cultlike devotion to deflationary/goldbug economics that I *can't* extricate myself from. I and many others have certainly argued why elsewhere, but principally, deflation seems to me like it will choke trade and investment, and keep Bitcoin from growing into the truly useful backbone for worldwide transactions that it could in principle become. At best, I see things stabilizing long-term to a low trade volume that's an unhappy equilibrium between hoarders and people who are no longer able/willing to hold their coins; on top of this might piggyback transactions like the international transfer I described that simply use BTCs as a 10-20 minute intermediary. At worst, I see the project dying off because of this. This is why the economics that's built into Bitcoin, and not just the technical issues, *do* affect the project.

For the record, what I think (and hope) will actually happen is that some other Bitcoin 2.0 with better economics comes online and outcompetes the current implementation. Presumably, such a virtual currency would be technically similar to Bitcoin, so that the effort already invested into complementary projects, like your Bitcoin-qt client (which I really respect and hope succeeds) or the exchanges, can be leveraged easily and not be lost. I think the technical underpinnings of Bitcoin, and their potential to change the world if implemented more sensibly, are simply too good to just die off without them being picked up by someone else.

Quote from: John Smith on July 16, 2011, 09:16:06 AM

It's not really your fault either. I really wish this forum was distanced from the project page somehow, and a simple "user/merchant/developer support" forum took its place. No political or economical speculation talk at all. Sometimes I feel fucked as a developer as I'm genuinely trying to help people and don't really want to be associated with the crap this forum has become.

+1

Another great post. I was in the middle of writing a flamepost against flug when this came in, and when I read it I was soothed and deleted it. You've obviously given some thought to your position and have good insight. It's both surprising to me and also unsurprising that so many here both completely misunderstand and vehemently defend the absolutely absurd economic underpinnings of Bitcoin.

Again, I think there is a great opportunity for a crypto-currency to arise and serve us well, but Bitcoin 1.0 is not it, and the sooner it dies it's deserved death the better.

And to get a bit meta here, there have been other great posts in this thread, both defending and criticizing Bitcoin that I'd like to respond to, but the good posts are lengthy and take me a great deal of time to respond to, ESPECIALLY when they cross quote large portions of text, and I simply haven't had the time to do that yet.

However, I'll spend less time responding to morons like flug who have very little to contribute through finger pointing and "debate by attrition" and more time trying to respond to those who have taken some time to put thought and effort to their replies.