Quote from: bullioner on December 05, 2013, 01:56:25 AM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on December 05, 2013, 01:36:50 AM

There is no such thing as innocent until proven guilty that is just a quaint phrase to make people sleep good at night. [...]

The law is to presume someone's innocent until they're proven guilty. This is very different from someone actually *being* innocent until proven guilty, which would be a bit of an epistemological magic trick.

Yeah the law DOESN'T presume you are innocent until proven guilty, like I said that is something people say to make them sleep well at night. If the law presumed you were innocent until the state can proven it then the state would be unable to do things like perform arrests with mere probable cause (a far lower burden then "beyond all reasonable doubt"), remand defendants (holding you in prison without bail until such time as you can prove that you are not guilty), or place the burden/cost of a defense on the defendant even one later found to be innocent (yeah maybe you don't lose your freedom but you still lose the time and cost of your successful defense).

All you are guaranteed is due process. Nothing more, nothing less.