Quote from: xDan on December 09, 2013, 11:53:34 PM

Quote from: porc on December 09, 2013, 02:46:33 PM

The Dollar only had value because government forces us to accept it. If I exchange something for dollars, I get government guns to make sure it will buy me goods

1) "Government force" is just one of many things that gives the dollar value. The greater thing that gives the dollar value is the millions of people willing to accept it as payment. The government mandate helps drive acceptance, but it's the acceptance itself that gives the value, not the mandate.

2) Bitcoin can grow in this space because merchants choose to accept it as payment. The end result is the same. Sure, they may decide one day that they'll no longer accept it... but for today, they do, and that's enough.

3) Until you can accept that a currency does not require government force for it to be useful, you won't be able to rationalise Bitcoin. Maybe Bitcoin will be the experiment to prove this point for you and others.

4) All value is a belief, whether dollars or bitcoins or gold. The merchants accept it due to the belief that tomorrow or next week or next year they'll be able to redeem their Bitcoin for other things they need.

5) If people ceased to believe they need to live in houses and buy posh cars, those things would be worth zero tomorrow. Ideas, intellectual properties, are often considered to have value despite being as intangible as Bitcoin.

6) Everything has value because of belief it can satisfy a present or a future need. Or even more basic: it has value because some human somewhere believes it has value.

7) Maybe the belief that Bitcoin will still be exchangeable for goods a month or a year from now is wrong, but I think it likely will. Others do too. There's your belief.

8) Maybe we're all wrong.

9) Maybe the US Government will go down tomorrow, and USD will be worthless.

Hedge your bets appropriately.

Thanks for your reply (serious). I think it demonstrates perfectly why bitcoiners are misguided. Let me go through your points one by one.

1) Your statement that "the greater thing that gives dollar value is the millions of people accepting it" is incorrect. It is the ONLY thing that gives dollars value. Now the reason anybody accepts nothing (paper) for something (goods) is that government forces us to do so (dollars have to be accepted for payment of any debt by law, alternative media of exchange are outlawed, ex. Liberty Gold or the use of soft force (regulation) makes it impossible to use them). If government would not force us to accept and use dollars the dollars price would return to the value of the paper content: almost 0.

2) Merchants will not accept nothing (bitcoin) for something. Merchants at the moment are dumping bitcoins immediately for dollars. This has been discussed already by this forum.

3) I agree. I think that Bitcoin is only bought because people are misguided and now (the majority) greedy. They think that bitcoin will continue to explode in price. They dont care about Bitcoins value (which I think is 0). I think Bitcoin will prove that you cant exchange "nothing" for "something" and that "nothing" is worth 0, even if "nothing" is rare (bitcoin might be abundant once nobody wants them anymore).

4) "All value is belief". No. I dont have to believe in the value of water. Water is valuable to human kind period. Nothing will change this "value judgement" (as if you could suddenly not decide to drink). You have to be delusional if you state that the belief in the "value" of 1 bitcoin (I cant do anything with it) is the same as belief in the value of water (I need it to survive).

5) Again similar answer to 4). People need shelter. Its not a believe that I hold, that I need shelter. If I want to stay warm and comfortable in winter times or when it rains I need shelter (aka reality). Equating this reality to the belief that bitcoin has value is laughable.

6) Same answer as 4) + 5)

7) You belief that something will be exchanged for nothing. It has never worked over a longer period of time in the history of man kind.

8) We will see what the future brings.

9) We agree.