Quote from: xDan on December 10, 2013, 12:43:27 PM

Quote from: porc on December 10, 2013, 12:19:36 AM

Thanks for your reply (serious). I think it demonstrates perfectly why bitcoiners are misguided. Let me go through your points one by one.

1) Your statement that "the greater thing that gives dollar value is the millions of people accepting it" is incorrect. It is the ONLY thing that gives dollars value. Now the reason anybody accepts nothing (paper) for something (goods) is that government forces us to do so (dollars have to be accepted for payment of any debt by law, alternative media of exchange are outlawed, ex. Liberty Gold or the use of soft force (regulation) makes it impossible to use them). If government would not force us to accept and use dollars the dollars price would return to the value of the paper content: almost 0.

2) Merchants will not accept nothing (bitcoin) for something. Merchants at the moment are dumping bitcoins immediately for dollars. This has been discussed already by this forum.

3) I agree. I think that Bitcoin is only bought because people are misguided and now (the majority) greedy. They think that bitcoin will continue to explode in price. They dont care about Bitcoins value (which I think is 0). I think Bitcoin will prove that you cant exchange "nothing" for "something" and that "nothing" is worth 0, even if "nothing" is rare (bitcoin might be abundant once nobody wants them anymore).

4) "All value is belief". No. I dont have to believe in the value of water. Water is valuable to human kind period. Nothing will change this "value judgement" (as if you could suddenly not decide to drink). You have to be delusional if you state that the belief in the "value" of 1 bitcoin (I cant do anything with it) is the same as belief in the value of water (I need it to survive).

5) Again similar answer to 4). People need shelter. Its not a believe that I hold, that I need shelter. If I want to stay warm and comfortable in winter times or when it rains I need shelter (aka reality). Equating this reality to the belief that bitcoin has value is laughable.

6) Same answer as 4) + 5)

7) You belief that something will be exchanged for nothing. It has never worked over a longer period of time in the history of man kind.

Cool

We will see what the future brings.

9) We agree.

1) I respectfully disagree, for the reasons given previously. As long as you hold that view, you won't be able to rationalise Bitcoin. I see at least why you so strongly disbelieve in bitcoin.

2) Not all merchants dump it. Less will as time passes and it proves itself more stable (assuming this happens). But, I think this is irrelevant anyway - as long as there is someone else who will give them dollars for it, a person who believes they'll then be able to exchange this BTC for goods, the chain of belief holds. Bitcoin can still find some use even if every transaction involves an exchange to or from dollars.

3) I agree that most buy it as speculation. I still think it would maintain some of this illusion of "value" without speculation. Then again - speculation IS belief. As long as the speculation holds, it has "value". How long will the speculation hold? Who knows. Maybe some nuclear alchemist will finally be able to create gold from nothing, and gold will have value only as gilding. Maybe bitcoin will regress to only having value as play money amongst hobbyists - but that is still value, even if a pizza does cost 10,000 bitcoins. I have varying amounts of belief in those different scenarios.

4) I never said the belief levels were the same. Of course, to a thirsty person water is more valuable. There is still *belief* there - they believe it will quench their first. If they had some strange mental disease and didn't hold that belief, water would have no value (according to them). If you are only somewhat thirsty, and I offer you either a glass of water or a bitcoin, a rational person may choose the bitcoin in the hope they can then exchange it some hours later for some water + some large excess of fiat. Surely you wouldn't refuse a bitcoin if I offered it to you free? You could exchange it for some gold! You would hold the belief that it is possible for some other person to give you gold in exchange... Even if you think their belief is *wrong*, you still know there is a fair chance they will accept it, and that knowledge itself I would categorise as "belief".

5,6) Same as 4. Intrinsic value still requires belief. What is shelter? It's the belief that this structure will provide you with warmth, with a comfy space to live in. If you didn't believe a house could provide that, you would not value it. Some people believe a bitcoin can provide them with real things. It doesn't matter that YOU disagree, all that matters is that this other person believes. Heck, when you buy a house, it can't even be hidden in your mind with a brainwallet like a bitcoin can! Instead, you have to rely mostly on the legal system to enforce your "ownership". Laws are an intangible thing backed by people (backed in turn by the *belief* that those people will enforce those laws).

7) Not exactly... I believe that real physical "somethings" are as intangible as a virtual bitcoin, because their physical existence has no particular meaning, only the human *belief* in them does. And belief can exist for virtual, intangible, things. You may think it is an incorrect, deluded belief... But it's still belief.

> So the answer is: I can dump it on the next guy?
YES! And that's OK. You can dump your gold on the next guy too. Maybe gold won't have value tomorrow. (And the likelihood of value tomorrow of gold vs bitcoin is a matter of opinion/belief.)

It applies to everything we consider to have future value. (Maybe the house stops rain falling on us right now, but to assume it will do so tomorrow requires belief. To assume it will continue to do so even in the next second requires belief. It may be a very strongly held belief, but it is in no way an absolute.) "Intrinsic value" is an illusion, a human obsession. As far as science can tell us, reality itself is no more than mathematical equations. Your house is a protocol. "If rain hits roof; repel".

In summary, it is my opinion that all humans are "misguided", not only bitcoiners.

It's the greater fool theory but applied to everything; we are all fools for believing in fiat, in gold, in real estate, in the food on our plates.

The only difference between these things is the amount of belief in them. I would accept that Bitcoin has far less belief in it than gold, real estate, etc. Yet it has more than zero belief.

> What can you do with a bitcoin?
Today you can buy some select things with it.
Tomorrow, you may not be able to.
Same for government fiat, just currently with a whole lot more belief.

Bolded part: In future humans will want shelter on planet earth. You categorize this statement as a belief, because nobody can be 100% certain of future events. Even though you are correct; you are being pedantic here. The same holds true for gold: Humans since the dawn of man have liked the look of gold. Most humans find it beautiful.

Now lets look at bitcoin. Bitcoin REALLY is NOTHING. I cant do anything with it. Now bitcoiners want me to belief that NOTHING WILL IN FUTURE ALWAYS be accepted FOR SOMETHING. Now this has NEVER happened before in HISTORY over any prolonged period of time. Thus it is highly unlikely that it will happen in future with bitcoin. The fact that NOTHING can be transferred and kept on your computer does not change this.

Again there are huge differences. Calling everything a belief without highlighting those differences is highly misleading (something bitcoiners love to do).