Quote from: smilem on July 25, 2011, 06:58:52 AM

Quote

No, this is not important. Money has no "inner" value. If bitcoins ever will be used, the first miners will be incredibly rich. Maybe it is a bit unfair, but we all need functional cheap money, functional independent market. The premium simply got the visionares, as the states get the value now from printing money. This has not to be socialism. Soon, money mining will vanish, until new energy sources will be invented, thus bit coin will be in other ways energy unit. Unit of Watt/horsepower/Joule. Money has to be energy, that is ok and it was written in cyberpunk literature years ago.

Well the early adopters getting ritch is an algorithm flaw made on purpose (more likely) or because somebody did not anticipate something happening.

Only popular majority systems has the power, like torrents, for example. Bitcoin (how it evolves today) seems like minority illegal money system to me.

Also in my country government can make a law that trading illegal money is illegal, so no trader will be able to accept bitcoins, and no customer pay in bitcoins. The system will be more underground money system, and that no revolution in money as it would be if majority of people would use it.

I do not know if it was purpose or not. I do not care. The money is here. Every money always rise from nowhere and they are valid only because people accept it.

Even torrent started from zero. New currency, that is needed by world, will start from zero too. IDK if it will be this currency.

If government makes something illegal, that can mean a lot but also can have small affect. The law has sense if there is someone who can enforce it. If the trading will be legal in another country (another country server), local government can not do much about it, unless they create big wall around.

Quote

Quote

Money has to be energy, that is ok

What energy has to do with illegal money? for example you can use illegal money to buy procesing power and again have illegal money? Last time I checked processing power is not free.

The thing is in todays world the most ritch people are the most corrupt, so why make the same mistake twice?
Even now nobody owns 90% of all money? However with bitcoin early adopters will hold that money and will be able to crash the market or currency anytime.

Nobody wants a currency where one day you can buy a water bottle for 0.1BTC the next a trailer full of water bottles and a week later you can't buy anything.

Good economy, hence money system is with big middle class, now how hard would it be to make easy wbiew mode on block explorer to show exactly that? let's see how healthy bitcoin is?

I mean that energy is good as currency stardard. Like was golden standard, but energy is more stable and it is something like "core".

The other notes are valid. But why there should be so big ups and downs in money supply (your example with water)? As the time goes on, the market should be more stable. Even if some early adopter goes crazy, he can do it only once and then money is more "spread over" to "middle class".

(Btw. it is system based on middle class that brought us to the point where we are. I do not believe in it. I believe in elites who can foresee future = early adopters. But that is another debate.)

Quote

Quote

No, this is not important. Money has no "inner" value.

Money must have inner value, hard to find needed stuff has inner value because of these properties. When these properties vanish money system is replaced.

First money system was salt because nobody can live without salt. It was not Gold or barter trade like they want you to believe. Read some history.

Sorry. Do not look at history. I studied history of currencies at university. That is past. Apparently money that exist NOW have no inner value and system still works. The only inner value of money that is needed is belief. Belief of other people that the money have value. That is bottom line. Governments stole beliefs. Even now we have options to have commodity money, but people accept fiat (paper) money.

So if people will believe that dogs shit or used Moscow train tickets have value, they will maybe use it as money. What is important with money are things like: can it be divided easily? Can it be traded/used easily? How stable the currency is (no ABRUPT inflation/deflation risks -> anticipated inflation/deflation is ok)

Quote

Quote

The premium simply got the visionares, as the states get the value now from printing money.

The value should arise from something we are all equal to, like time. We all die as far as I know. So the only economically just system would be something like they done with emule P2P system. take a look how queue system works there. You have to wait to download but the more you share the faster you yourself can download.

So for money system one could make something like it also. The longer you police the network then more coins you get. processing power aside, the algorithm would work in a way that even if somebody steps in with huge processing power there would not be a way to overthrow the system because of the "longer you wait" - "more power" system.

Coins will end, but in my system anybody can grow their potential after coins end (by mining as you call it). On bitcoin system there will be huge decline in miners when coins end because normal users will not police the system, and given the enormous computer power increase every year it will be very easy to overthrow bitcoin when coins end.
The majority of population will have the processing power to do it, as we now have to create it. That is no secure or any good money system if you ask me.

Remember the minority will be rich with bitcoin so they will not be able to police the system, also users like us will always going th create more ideal money system

One thing I'd like to note is that there is always a need for motivation. So transaction cost should not vanish in any money system as a whole. Given the enormous computer power increase every year the cost could be simply time you wait for your transaction to be done. If you don't want to wait you must pay some percent from your whole transaction.

I didn't look at bitcoin code yet but in self sustaining money system everything needs to be thought ahead in time, everything must be done with self adjusting arguments and constants. There can't be no hardcoded simple values like with bitcoin. The algorithms should adjust themselves to outside influence, hence the problem making them. They would be very complex because every argument needs to be thought ahead in time what it does, when and how.

The value IMO can go from anything and nothing is fair. My time is much more expensive than time of uneployed guy in India for example. No system is "fair". If there would be a system based on your criteria, it can work as well. There will be for sure NOT only one currency and only the best (most believed, most survivalent) currencies will exist.

Everything with currency need not to be done ahead of time. Markets can maybe do the job on the fly. Current monetary system is nothing than ad hoc, Bitcoin has at least some credibility, because there is more big holders of money. In current system, there is only one holder - state. And state is corrupted, because politicians are buying voters votes, they need money and they create money (central bank's independence is a joke).

But I think I now see your arguments. Look at domain market. Also there were not many early adopters that got the best domains for (almost) nothing. But domain market works. The domains are going to the brands they need it (American Airlines have aa.com etc). Early adopters got their incredible money and spent it for some luxury crap. I can imagine this can happen with bitcoin too.

Ofc I do not think Bitcoin chances are high too. Your argument about "bitcoin monopolization" is indeed crucial. But we do not know what will happen. Some economic power aside of bitcoin can rise demand of internet currency and Bitcoin EXISTS. That is big surplus of Bitcoin.