Quote from: shawshankinmate37927 on December 18, 2013, 01:04:52 AM

Quote from: jinni on December 17, 2013, 10:43:39 PM

Quote from: shawshankinmate37927 on December 13, 2013, 10:16:10 PM

Quote from: hawkeye on December 13, 2013, 10:18:25 AM

Quote from: Mike Christ on December 12, 2013, 08:37:21 PM

This is why I'm a libertarian: these horror stories will only stop once people take responsibility for their actions. A part of this responsibility is not allowing other men to commit immoral atrocities in your name. We're all responsible for these deaths.

I'm not responsible. The government has nothing to do with me. They are a racket that steals my money at gunpoint, nothing more. If a thug steals my money on the street and buys some bullets with it and shoots someone with them I am not responsible. If I cheered the thug on or made excuses for the murder that would make me pretty immoral which is why I don't defend the government at all.

I agree. It's the politicians that order and authorize these attacks and the people that keep voting those criminals into office that have innocent blood on their hands. My conscience is clear.

Are you saying that to be completely in the clear morally, and the only thing you have to do is not to vote in the politicians that order the atrocities?

I don't agree. I'm not from the US but I feel partly responsible for the millions of innocent people that have been killed (mostly by the US and partly by its allies) while I paid taxes to a government that supports the US, even though I didn't vote in the people who approved the support.

Although, shouldering all the worlds problems onto oneself is of course not feasible. But living more or less like an agorist is. Personally, I feel that achieving just that is many years ahead of me (though bitcoin will help alot to speed it up).

The question is, is it better to be a dissident (and have a clear conscience) at the cost of other ambitions? What if those ambitions are about creating (and hence adding value to society)?

For me, having a completely clear conscience is not possible when atrocities continue while better knowledge is so easily accessible as today. But, I won't allow guilt to consume my life either.

Still it is hard not to think of the opposition to the Vietnam war, nothing near that scale of opposition happened with the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. Maybe we are getting more complacent.....

I believe there is no reason for me to feel guilty about crimes committed by someone else that I didn't willingly assist in. If handing money over to those committing these atrocities was a completely voluntary action, the way voting for them is, then that would be a different matter.

Becoming a dissident by refusing to pay taxes is taking things to another level. I admire and respect those who have defied unjust laws throughout history. That's how the USA started. I don't believe paying taxes is a moral duty, but we shouldn't be trying to make people feel like they are complicit in the crimes because they aren't willing or able to accept the consequences that result when they refuse to pay their taxes.

I can see the logic of your argument. But what I'm proposing is not refusing to pay taxes and go to jail, I'm saying to avoid them. One could engineer one's life according to tax rules, ie. one could move to another country or one could minimize one's taxes by going on wealthfare, etc.

And what about the voluntary acts of using electricity from the grid, using a regular bank or buying anything that carries taxes?

Look, I'm not trying to guilt trip any one into doing anything. But the same argument can be made in any regime that commits or aids in committing atrocities. I'm merely trying to point out the moral cost of accepting a more or less "regular life" in the West today. True, one cannot be held directly responsible for the atrocities, I'm not disputing that, I'm saying that subversiveness is critical to making the change that is needed.

Also, I'm saying that it is difficult to find a good balance between living according to one's moral ideals and just living. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a moralist - but there might still be away to combine one's moral ideals with other life goals, and that is something one is definitely obliged to pursue.