Quote from: yomamanodros on December 20, 2013, 05:59:22 AM

The point we were making is that the terms were not actually clear at all. He stated from the beginning that all miners were already paid for. He wasn't collecting money to buy miners, he was collecting money to reimburse himself. He called it a group buy, but the title of the thread stated that the miners were already paid for.

I think it depends on when you first saw the post. It was not purchased at the very beginning. He collected orders until he got somewhere about 90% (I guess) of the slots filled. Anyway, there was a number of slots and once he passed that threshold, he ordered. He might have marked it as paid, because he did pay for it -- this is an important indicator to let you know the hardware order is in the queue! And how did he pay for it? It might have been out of his own pocket, or it might have been using the BTC for shares received. If I recall correctly, the cost per share * number of shares was more than the cost of the hardware. In other words, I think there was a small profit per share, which he might have used to allow himself to order that hardware before filling all slots. I don't know what he did with the extra BTC. Maybe he put it in his pocket. All I do know is that he didn't hide anything. I could do the math and see there was a small premium over the actual cost of the hardware.

Quote from: yomamanodros on December 20, 2013, 05:59:22 AM

Also, there was no where in the terms that stated that Dec. 31 was the guaranteed delivery date, the only date mentioned was the end of November. When I bought my shares I was under the impression that delivery was by the end of Nov. or refund or waiting was an option. Had I known the actual guaranteed delivery date was the end of Dec, I would have taken my money elsewhere. I passed on other GBs with much better terms for late Dec early Jan deliveries for one that I thought would refund me if it wasn't delivered by the end of Nov.

I never saw the December 31 date, either, until the expected date came and went. But he never made any guarantees of delivery by the end of October or November. Originally, I think the hardware was expected to be in at the end of October. Whatever the case, the offer clearly said he cannot be responsible for the fact that the manufacturer does not deliver on time. Had you purchased directly from HashFast, you'd be in the same boat you are now. He's not misleading you here.

Nobody doing a group buy from a hardware manufacturer can guarantee delivery of the hardware. Any group buy that says they will give you a full refund if the manufacturer does not deliver by some set date is not being entirely truthful. Either that or they have very deep pockets and do not need your money. If the latter, I doubt they would even offer a group buy.

Put yourself in his shoes. Suppose you wanted to do a group buy like this. Suppose you need to collect at least 90% of the funds from others before you have enough to order the hardware. Then the manufacturer fails to deliver the hardware on time. What would you be doing? Will you pull out BTC out of your pocket and return it to everyone? Remember, you didn't have enough money in your pocket to buy the hardware in the first place, so likely you could not.

Quote from: yomamanodros on December 20, 2013, 05:59:22 AM

I was much more upset with waldohoovers lack of communication than I was with not getting a refund. Once we started asking for clarification of the terms, waldo stopped responding with any details at all. Personally I would have been fine with it if he had just said that he made a mistake by not including the manufacturer's guaranteed delivery date.

Well, I honestly don't know what you want him to tell you. He's one man setting up some miners and working with a bunch of yahoos from all over the world to make it happen. He wrote the terms and conditions up front. I understood them. Most people understood them. What is there to clarify that you honestly do not already know the answer to?

Quote from: yomamanodros on December 20, 2013, 05:59:22 AM

I am willing to wait and I do appreciate what waldo is doing, but he is being compensated for his work and does have a responsibility to those of us who trusted him with our money. He is getting 3% of every single miner that he runs a group buy for and that is a significant hashrate when you add that all up. This is why it is important that we hold him to the terms that we all agreed to. GB coordinators are being trusted with many thousands of dollars and should act like professionals when communicating with their customers. This is a customer service job as well as a tech job.

Well, he's not being compensated if the miners do not show up. Well, except for that 3% charge that he'll take to issue a refund back to you.

Your point is valid that he should answer questions, but it's the types of questions and, dare I say, inflammatory complaining that is not something he should have to listen to. He answered every question. The problem is people did not like the answer. The only guess I can see as to why people are complaining is nothing to do with his terms, but the fact they are angry that the manufacturer is late on the product. So late, in fact, that it's likely not going to prove to be a significant ROI.

However, you cannot blame the man at the helm. He did his job: he collected money, he purchased the miner, and he's waiting ... fully ready to go the day that box arrives.

Quote from: yomamanodros on December 20, 2013, 05:59:22 AM

I agree that this discussion has gone on too long and this is that last I am going to say about the issue. Hopefully the miners are not delivered on time and we will get our btc refunds, but if we do get our delivery or the only refund option is US$, I have confidence that waldo will do a good job hosting our miners.

So, you do understand he's doing the best he can. I don't even know if the refund policy would be for the BTC you paid or the US$ equivalent of the BTC you paid. I suspect this depends on the purchase terms with HashFast. Arguably, they should return BTC, but they might be in a similar boat: they used that BTC to buy the hardware and don't have BTC to return. But, they can re-sell the hardware to somebody else and then give a refund on it. That suggests a US$ equivalent.