Quote from: bryant.coleman on December 30, 2013, 02:22:10 PM

Quote from: jinni on December 30, 2013, 12:48:42 PM

Oppressive can be a finicky term, but is there any doubt that Yanukovych is rotten to the core? Though a government in Ukraine of any kind that is not mired in overt corruption is hard to imagine.

Tymoshenko is more corrupt, when compared to Yanukovych.

What on earth are you basing this statement on? At least Yanukovych is corrupt enough to jail Tymoshenko, in what was at best a political trial. At worst Tymoshenko is the victim of deliberate persecution by Yanukovych.

Quote from: bryant.coleman on December 30, 2013, 02:22:10 PM

Quote from: jinni on December 30, 2013, 12:48:42 PM

The EU has only applied soft pressure, by offering a trade (and implied association deal) with Ukraine, whereas Russia is using Ukraine's reliance on Russian gas to force their hand. A deal with the EU would still leave the Ukraine free to deal with Russia, but a deal with Russia would not make the country free to deal with the EU.

As I said, I don't agree with what Washington is doing, but the Kremlin is just as bad...if not worse.

There is nothing like Soft Pressure. Both the sides are trying to force Ukraine to ally with them. The Western media however, would like to paint this as blackmail by Putin, and carrot and stick by the EU.

What is the EU's "stick" against Ukraine?

The point is that Ukraine is in a power vacuum between two behemoths. Staying independent and neutral in such a position is a balancing act the divided and fragile state of Ukraine is capable of doing. They could split the country into two halves by plebiscite in every county or region.

Otherwise they could join one side (east or west) and force the other half of the country. So arguing which is better between Brussels and Kremlin, how could you make the argument that Ukraine would be more independent under a Kremlin Hegemony than a Brussels Hegemony?

Kremlin has resorted to military force time and time again. While Brussels has had a few brushes between demonstrators and police. They still still allow a ton more dissent by both protesters and media viewpoints than the Kremlin has allowed ever.

I'm saying Ukraine as a country would have greater independence under an EU hegemony and I'm saying that its people would enjoy more personal liberty under an EU hegemony.