Quote from: Isaac_Ramirez on August 16, 2018, 08:34:18 PM

Quote from: BADecker on August 16, 2018, 01:17:00 AM

Quote from: Isaac_Ramirez on August 15, 2018, 09:30:18 PM

Quote from: BADecker on August 14, 2018, 11:34:48 AM

When God created the Earth for us, he gave us a whole lot of freedom. We could do anything we wanted except for the one law... don't eat of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the Garden. The whole Earth was free for us. But then we accepted the info from the serpent/devil as greater than that of God. By doing this, we made a pact with the devil that we would listen to him and obey his rules. In other words, we gave the Earth over to the ownership of the devil, at least as far as we were concerned.

If the devil had been somebody of little power, things might not be the same as they were. But check out the second half of Ezekiel 28 to see the power that God had given the devil. The devil was able, through our willing obedience of him, to effect great corruption in us at the core of our being. The result is that we no longer have any power on our own to turn from the devil.

The influence of the devil over us is so great that, if we use any of our strength to attempt to even believe in Jesus salvation on our own, we turn the Jesus salvation thing into corruption for ourselves. It is only through the working of the Holy Spirit in our hearts (our core being) that Jesus salvation can be worked in us successfully.

Since our corruption is this deep, and since we don't understand how such deep corruption works and what it does, we barely see why death is necessary for us, so that God can remake us in the New Heavens and the New Earth, where corruption can never happen again.

This whole operation is built on:
1. The gift of God to us so that we have life;
2. The various agreements we make, first with God... to have life, then with the devil to corrupt our life, and then with God again to bring us to His new gift of salvation (even though it is God Who effects this second agreement with Him, in our hearts).

None of this is as simple as you make it sound.

Cool

Sorry, if it seemed that I simplified things too much. I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject. Don't you think that an all-knowing God knew that "we" would partake of the fruit? Couldn't that have been part of His plan? I never heard this wording before: "we made a pact with the devil that we would listen to him and obey his rules". Would you mind giving a scriptural reference for that? Maybe I just missed it. I that that there was no way for us to truly be tempted without having evil on the earth. We need opposing forces, so we can make decisions. If good is all you have, they there's no choice to make.

The scripture reference is right in the beginning of Genesis... how Eve was tempted to eat the fruit.

God said don't eat the fruit because you will die.
The serpent (the devil talking through it) said you surely won't die.

Genesis 3:1-5:

Quote from: https://biblehub.com/niv/genesis/3.htm

1Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, Did God really say, You must not eat from any tree in the garden?

2The woman said to the serpent, We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3but God did say, You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die. 

4You will not certainly die, the serpent said to the woman. 5For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

The problem started when the woman decided to believe the serpent rather than God. The contract was, essentially, "You believed me, so you get what I say." Since the contract with the devil was a lie, the contract was broken, because the woman did not get what the serpent said. But, the woman got what the contract with God said... death.

So, where is the good and where is the evil? The good is that God didn't want man to die. Rather, He wanted a relationship with mankind. But this relationship barely got started when mankind decided to die, and do away with the relationship. That is the evil.

When you look at the second half of Ezekiel 28, you can see the good that God placed in the devil, and the good reason why He made him this way... and how the devil changed himself from good to evil. Then, in John 8:44 we see when the devil started practicing his evil:

Quote from: https://biblehub.com/niv/john/8.htm

42Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your fathers desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why dont you believe me? 47Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.

People don't clearly select who their parents are (even though they might in some unknown way). But we are all the children of Adam and Eve, who became children of the devil for a time... until God rescued them by promising the Savior.

The devil's contract with them was broken, because he didn't fulfill his part of the bargain. And the contract with God was completed by mankind making their choice... to die. The death contract is fulfilled in us, who, like our first parents, die.

The new contract with God is to believe the salvation of Jesus that God set in place. Man didn't have the power to make a new contract, but God did, because He still wanted the relationship. And, part of the new contract is God working the saving faith into the hearts those people who are too weak to reject faith. There is essentially no other way to say it. Strong will is strength against God's working faith in the heart... because the will of man still clings to both the devil's broken contract, and God's fulfilled contract of death.

The point of all this is that we will all rise in the resurrection. God's contract of new life overcomes the old contract of death. But since the contract is made to apply by believing - Eve believed the devil regarding the first contract - it will hold true by believing in God for Jesus salvation in the second contract. Those who don't believe God for the second contract will get a final death, the second death, as talked about in the Revelation. And this second death will be a lot more painful and disastrous than the first death when they put you in the ground.

Cool

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I understand that most of what your saying is common Christian doctrine. I still do see the answer to my question though. You previously wrote, "we made a pact with the devil that we would listen to him and obey his rules". How is this a pact? Now you call it a contract with him. I don't see in the scriptures that Eve promised to listen to the devil and obey his rules. She just believed (presumably) what he said and partook of the fruit. Maybe I just don't understand the words pact or contract, but I don't understand otherwise.

Although some bible verse are also deep the meaning and if you like to know the meaning better to consult the professional person to talk about what does it mean,but the lord says if you luck the knowleged in wisdom ask me,,and give it to you. And but back to your question ,the end is near ? I think base on the things happen to our sorrunding yes,, its very near ,,but no one can know what the exact time or date only god will know.