Quote from: BitWhisk.io on September 08, 2018, 02:50:49 PM

Thanks for your detailed answer. I still have a lot of questions and I tried to summarize them below. I am still skeptical, but I am ready to change an opinion about your service based on your further answers, maybe I just do not get the concept properly.

OK, lets try to change your point of view on Jambler.io

Quote from: BitWhisk.io on September 08, 2018, 02:50:49 PM

Quote from: Jay Johanson on September 06, 2018, 02:38:10 PM

This is the principle our philosophy is based on - we do not crave for competition with existing mixers, on the contrary, we offer the whole industry a mutually beneficial partnership which will allow to increase the level of bitcoin anonymity and as a result - privacy of cryptocurrency holders.

Could you describe in details how the industry will benefit from mutual partnership through your project?

As I mentioned previously, Jambler.io offers its services to three target audiences: Sellers (Those who want to earn money by investing their BTC), Partner Mixers (Those who want to run their own mixing service) and End Users (Those who want to keep their savings safe and stay anonymous). So, these three groups can benefit from working with us. By the way, the entire Jambler.io website is dedicated to description of benefits from cooperation with the platform.

I would only add here that our approach involves more parties (investors, partners and end users) in the anonymization procedure, which makes deanonymization more complicated.

Moreover, existing mixers could easily integrate with Jambler.io and offer their customers optional mixing service (by using checked coins from cryptocurrency stock exchanges).

Quote from: BitWhisk.io on September 08, 2018, 02:50:49 PM

Quote from: Jay Johanson on September 06, 2018, 02:38:10 PM

At the moment we are the first on the market to offer the creation of a turn-key mixer (website, TOR mirror, telegram bot) in addition with an investment opportunity. Moreover, almost everyone can build up his own bitcoin mixer: there is no big need for ad-hoc competences or initial investments.

That is exactly the point which makes me think some misunderstanding is happening. A lot of questions come to my mind.

To host a mixing service is a complex task: you need to configure a web-server, run a Bitcoin full node, write the code which will interact with the node, finally the last but not the least: you should have bitcoins to operate with. All right, lets suppose I want to create a mixing service via your platform and I have some coins with me. Suppose you have some code templates, but how do I run a service itself? Because for that purpose I need some web-server where the code of "my mixer" will be executed. Do you provide your customers with the servers? Maybe yes, but the last point remains: what about Bitcoin wallets? Who controls the reserve of the mixers created through your platform?

You are absolutely right and I do agree with your description of how to create a BTC mixer. Jambler.io offers a different thing. We went through the whole process you described and frankly speaking it was even more complicated than you described. Seeing the complexity of BTC mixer creation we set ourselves the goal to simplify this process and make it available and affordable for almost everyone.

Now to the point: The mixing takes place in the core of Jambler.io platform, not on partner mixer side. All funds used in anonymization are taken from investors/sellers and only minor part of coins are stored in the core.

Instead of so called CAPEX model we offer our partners an OPEX one. In other words, they do not need servers and they even do not need funds to mix coins. Platform does all infrastructural work. The partner itself acts as a gateway between the platform and end users.

Answering you question about Bitcoin wallets: the platform controls all wallets, all transactions and issues guarantee letters.
The partner mixer does not need a reserve, as a reserve is provided by the platform. If it is not enough, we send a request to all our sellers with a proposal for a short-term investment.

Quote from: BitWhisk.io on September 08, 2018, 02:50:49 PM

So the dilemma here is the following: either you hold the bitcoins of users who created a mixer or not? If the answer is yes, then the mixing service is essentially yours, not user's, right? If the answer is no, then how the created mixer is associated with your service? By the way, who buys the domain names for mixer created through your platform?

We do not require Bitcoins for partner mixer creation. Funds for mixing are taken from investors and at some point are offered by platform to partners users (end customers). Still partners should get domain and hosting by themselves. If you have some coins you could act a seller and make a short-term investment or spend your money on promoting your mixer.

Quote from: BitWhisk.io on September 08, 2018, 02:50:49 PM

These were the technical questions, I appreciate if you elaborate on this, because now this concept of creating a mixing service is very vague. I cannot understand who creates what and who is responsible for what. The second part is more about philosophy behind the scenes.

Probably the only thing I could add here is that the platform takes commission for the abovementioned services for partners.

Quote from: BitWhisk.io on September 08, 2018, 02:50:49 PM

Suppose you have developed some magic box which spits out a mixing service when you push a button. However, what would be the point of such box? Would it have some sense? Because any mixer is centralized, meaning it has to gain a reputation and it is a long and very hard task. What is the point of creating service with couple of clicks? Who will use them? Who will promote them?

I believe most of these questions have been already covered in my previous comments. I would add here that I agree with you that the success of mixer relays on reputation. Our partners are responsible for all promotional activities and gaining reputation. We are backing our partners with stable infrastructure and necessary amount of funds.

Quote from: BitWhisk.io on September 08, 2018, 02:50:49 PM

In your previous answer you state the following:

Quote from: Jay Johanson on September 06, 2018, 02:38:10 PM

Our fundamental difference is that we solve the following weak points of 'classic' mixers:
1. a risk of getting your own money back. Moreover, this risk increases with a regular use of one and the same mixer.

This sounds strange. You may not guarantee that your partners will not scam their customers, right? Do you mean that using different services decreases the risk? But this statement is so questionable. So what do you mean here?

We cannot be responsible for our partners, anyone can freely become Jambler.io partner. In case an end user will contact us with a question about the mixing operation performed through our partner service, we will be able to verify the validity of this request by means of a guarantee letter that the platform issues directly to an end user.

If you could suggest ways of dealing with scam among partners, we would be grateful to you and ready to consider any offers. Anyway, in case our partner turns out to be scam, we will disconnect them from our platform.

Quote from: BitWhisk.io on September 08, 2018, 02:50:49 PM

Quote from: Jay Johanson on September 06, 2018, 02:38:10 PM

2. there is no guarantee that customer money is not mixed with cryptocurrency of illicit origin. In other words, a use of classic mixers may lead to that cryptocurrency of questionable provenance will take part in the mixing process and what is more, return of a part of cryptocurrency back to its owner is not ruled out.

You always say something about "classic mixer" as your project is kind of "non-classic mixer" which solves some problems of "classic mixers". But as you said above you are not a mixer at all. Moreover, all send-receive mixers use code system: when the users addresses are marked by the code, hence if the user uses the same code every time he uses a service it guarantees that he will not obtain his own coins back.

We do not have such issues and there is no need to use the code. For each transaction we always have a new inflow of funds from cryptocurrency stock exchanges.

As you know, if the end user regularly uses the mixer you described, 1-2 times a day, then the use of the codes becomes inconvenient.

Quote from: BitWhisk.io on September 08, 2018, 02:50:49 PM

Quote from: Jay Johanson on September 06, 2018, 02:38:10 PM

Plus, Jambler.io is more resistant to modern means of deanonymization. I think you should understand why, if you work in this industry.

Why are you more resistant? What makes you more resistant if you do not even provide mixing services itself? You see, I am completely confused by your answers. You seem to contradict yourself.

We are not a mixing service for an end user. An end user cannot use our service directly, only through a partner. However, anyone can become an investor and a partner.

Quote from: BitWhisk.io on September 08, 2018, 02:50:49 PM

Quote from: Jay Johanson on September 06, 2018, 02:38:10 PM

Quote

Moreover, I personally do not see much sense in using such "clean" sources. The aim of mixing is not to give users "clean" coins, but to break transaction history, making users funds untraceable for a third party.

I disagree with you here. The aim of any mixing is, first of all, to keep the client's anonymity. With the evolution of means of deanonymization, it is necessary to change the means of protection.
What is the point of using a mixer with 1,5-3% commission, if its wallets can be traced with the output addresses and/or change addresses, and the customer can also get coins with such a doubtful history that it would be better not to use mixers at all. New times require new solutions.

I am sorry to sound harsh here, but I probably will. I do not like all these talks about "New times", "New technologies of deanonymization" and so on. The concept of Blockchain was invented in the late 2000-th, from that time this concept has not acquired something breaking new. What are those "New times" you are speaking of? What the hell is this supposed to mean?

We can debate for a long time, have a look at this project https://crystalblockchain.com. And notice, the number of such projects increases.

Quote from: BitWhisk.io on September 08, 2018, 02:50:49 PM

The point of mixing is very, very simple. Suppose I have coins on the address A and want to transfer them to address D, if I create a transaction connecting A and D everybody who knows I own the address A will find out that I own the address D. Then I go to mixer service and it gives me the address B, I transfer the coins from A to B and mixer transfers coins from C to D. Assuming that addresses B and C are not connected in Blockchain I obtained the coins on the address D and nobody knows I am there. That's it, that's the whole concept.

It sounds good in theory, but in practice there are many problems we have to face. We wont list everything, but we can cite these two as an example:
Modern means of deanonymization can find a link between wallets B and C
The end user does not know the origin of money in wallet C and the trouble is that these funds can be of doubtful origin and can lead to further consequences for the end user.

Quote from: BitWhisk.io on September 08, 2018, 02:50:49 PM

Now you say that it is better if address C has "clean history". But look above, in the context of what I wrote it does not seem so important, don't you think? Moreover, how to measure its purity? You may say that you have some algorithms that check the incoming coins and so on, but all these are your words. We do not control your backend. We do not know what are those algorithms. We do not know the sources of your coins. All we can do here: we can only trust you. Now, don't you think that requiring 5% fee for something that cannot be immediately checked by anybody is something strange? I do.

From our point of view, the goal of any mixer is not just to replace an address B with an address C, but also to ensure a high level of anonymity, security and do not cause new problems for an end user.

You can test the platform yourself as an investor and see how the input funds from the cryptocurrency stock exchanges are checked. You can join as a partner and check how we process the requests of end users. Partners set their commission on their own. The total commission includes investor commission, platform commission and partner commission. A recommended commission is 5%, but a partner himself has the right to increase or decrease it.

The operation principle of the platform is quite simple and transparent. There are partners and investors whose trust we have already gained and they work with us. Join as an investor and / or as a partner.