Quote from: fxsurfer on September 17, 2018, 11:33:48 AM

Quote from: franky1 on September 17, 2018, 08:39:39 AM

what you dont understand is this

1. if the database was secured using a signature, (PoS) then the costs to secure it is zero. but bitcoin actually has a real hard cost to secure the database (PoW) which is commonly called mining.
in 2009. mining could be done by one persons PC and he would broadcast the database out to other and the costs were negligable.

2. over time the security increased, it became difficult to secure it with single machines. people started to calculate that the electric required to secure it was as such
if electric was 5cents an hour. and 6 blocks were created in that hour. and a block contained 50coins in 2009
then a cost per coin was $0.000016666666666667
then it started requiring more power. and thus when 10 people were using their electric only one got to secure it meaning for every 10th block a person got rewarded. thus the cost rose 0.00016666666666667
then it started requiring more power. and thus when 100 people were using their electric only one got to secure it meaning for every 100th block a person got rewarded. thus the cost rose 0.0016666666666667
then people started using GPU's and the costs rose. they started pooling their workload together and sharing the reward and the costs increased.

by 2011 the amount of electric and time put into securing bitcoin got to $1.
by 2012 the amount of electric and time and equipment needed made it cost $6

the the reward halved so that doubled the costs because there was then half the reward. so 2012 had a $12 cost
more people started to join pools and the security difficulty increased. so costs to secure it went up

by 2013 ASICS became a thing and vastly increased the security and difficulty. to a tune of $100
by 2016 the cost went up to $300
by 2017 the costs went upto $900
by 2018 costs went up above $5000

yea the costs dont match the price.. but thats speculation. thats random drama above the underlying value.
it like housing.
it cost $80k to build a house but the builders sell it for a bit more to profit so houses price in at over $100k. and then speculators add on more.

housing has real costs and so housing is not free. and yes when the PRICE hyper inflates above VALUE/COST
that excess is a bubble because the price is "inflated" like a bubble inflates.
the housing market had a 'housing bubble' not because housing is fake but the price was inflated way above value

so yes with bitcoin although we did see a $1200btc in 2013 although the value was ~$100. did not mean btc was worth zero.. its VALUE was $100 and its PRICE was an inflated bubble of $1200

so yes although we did see a $20k btc PRICE in 2017 although the value was ~$2k. did not mean btc was worth zero.. its value was $2k and its price was an inflated bubble of $20k

and now in 2018. by looking at the cost of mining. there is not much of a inflated layer(speculative layer) above value. bitcoins VALUE is actually around the $6k costs and so compared to the very thin % of speculation. is deemed good value as the price and value are close to each other.

bitcoins have a cost
housing has a cost
tulips has a cost
but the price fluctuates above cost.
you can still buy tulips even now.. astonishing right? you would think tulips are fake or not worth anything. but they are worth something.
you can still buy houses even now.. astonishing right? would think houses are not worth anything. but they are.
you can still buy bitcoins even now.. astonishing right? you would think bitcoins are fake/worthless but they they are worth something.

I think you missed the point of my opening post, which is this: bitcoin has neither price nor value. Furthermore, terms 'the price of bitcoin' and 'the value of bitcoin' are oxymorons. Let's go back to our database to see why.

_____A______ ____B____ ______C______
____Alice____ ____2____ ____iPhones___
____ Bob ____ ___20____ ____US Dollars_
___ Steve____ ___15____ ___IBM Shares_

Now, can you say that entries in column B have prices? Of course not, this would be nonsensical, since they are quantities not prices. Things outside this database (named in column C) are what have prices. But, in the case of bitcoin, there are no things outside this database that are named in column C, and this column simply contains the name of the entry in column B - number 2 is bitcoin.

____Peter____ ____2____ ____Bitcoins___

So, when you say that bitcoin has price, what you are actually saying is that quantities (numbers) have prices, which is, as we just saw, nonsensical.

I can understand you but Bitcoin is a code like a software has
And a code has both value and price like software