Quote from: NeuroticFish on September 18, 2018, 09:49:13 AM

So the banks are the only entities entitled to have ledgers we can trust? You have missed a great part of the real world.

So instead of answering my question you just made a generic statement that has nothing to do with the things I am saying. Ok your choice.

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And then why are you so reluctant in using (and paying to use) a ledger maintained by the community, in a way nobody can cheat it?

Because it is a fake ledger whose data points to nothing. It is just empty numbers connected to the addresses. Legitimate ledgers contain data about the quantities or other properties of digital or physical things that are owned and have value. Hence data is simply an emergent property, a symbolic representation of the actual thing, and without the thing itself data is useless. Bitcoin is just symbols/digital bits in memory that are not an emergent property of the actual thing that is owned and have value, and its only purpose is alteration once someone gave their possessions for free. If nobody can cheat in data alteration that doesn't mean data has value. Data is just a sequence of one or more symbols and it cannot have value in principle.

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So the amount in bank is abstract mathematical object, however you trust you will get goods in exchange for that (eg. via debit cards), while you claim that the abstract mathematical objects from Bitcoin ledger are worthless.

See the/your double standards here? Imho you just contradicted your own logic, meaning that the initial "logic" is faulty.

PS. People do donate now and then. And even gold, or paper money, or even a sandwich are things you can posses and can donate; however, it's not important in the main discussion.

The amount in bank is mathematical object that measures the share in the total claims that originated from the total borrowers liabilities. And claims are not based on trust but on legal enforceability. What that means in practice is that borrowers have two options: either they will sell their services and valuable things to owners of loan created money directly on the marketplace to get funds for their loan payments, or the bank will take possession of their land, cars, homes and will sell their valuable things to these owners indirectly, via foreclosure. So one way or another, legal enforceability of money, i.e. its claim status, ensures that its owners will come back into the possession of valuable things similar to those they handed out to borrowers or other people in the money circulation chain. And thats the beauty of loan created money. Since loan is legally enforceable liability that must be settled, the demand for money stored on bank accounts or banknotes will exist as long as this type of money does. In other words, even if people completely abandon loan created money as means of exchange, the borrowers are still forced to use it until all their debt is paid off, since non-acceptance of this money wont make borrowers liabilities go away. That means that ultimately, the amount in my bank account will provide me with actual things in the form of goods, services or property of borrowers, just like the gold certificates provided their owners with actual gold. To put it another way, in the past, money was backed by gold, today, it is backed by the assets of the banks and by land, cars, homes and other property of the borrowers.

So, the amount in bank is indeed abstract mathematical object, but thing represented and quantified with it is not. Bitcoin on the other hand, is abstract mathematical object that represent and quantify nothing. Hence, there is no contradiction in my logic.