Quote from: af_newbie on November 27, 2018, 04:43:08 PM

Quote from: coins4commies on November 27, 2018, 07:55:22 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on November 26, 2018, 06:05:37 PM

Stolen? Are you sure?

You are completely ignoring the cost of capital and the initiatives and the entrepreneurship of the capitalists.

BTW, nobody is stealing anything from workers. Workers work willingly.

Who is taking the risk? Capitalists or workers?

The risk in any venture is correlated with the potential ROI. What do workers risk? Not being bored at work?

Why do you think the Apple employees deserve the 400k/year? Who risked their capital? Apple employees or the capitalists who own the company?

Do you want to benefit from Apple success? Buy the APPL stock.

PS. BTW, workers control the value of their labor. They ask for wages or salaries. Where did you get this idea that workers are not in control of their lives or their labor? In democratic societies, we are all free to pursue whatever we desire as long as it is legal. You can go to university, get your Ph.D., start your own company, hire people who can be trained and help them better their lives. Run your company, invest and retire early. Nobody is stopping you.

Capitalists take much more than the cost of capital. If they only took the cost of capital, that would be fair and no one would be complaining. Its misleading to say workers choose to work for capitalists, they work or starve. That is coercion. This is why homelessness and poverty are necessary for sustaining capitalism. If you ended them, there wouldn't be a viable threat to coerce people into accepting these predatory work agreements. This is why there is so much slander of anything remotely socialist. Any policy that might help people take control of their lives (funds for welfare, education, healthcare or starting your own business) is an existential threat to capitalism as we know it.

I'm glad you brought up risk because capitalists don't really risk much at all. They risk not making as much money as they could have made elsewhere. Thats it. Meanwhile, workers risk everything. They risk their life. If a machine blows up, capitalists aren't going to lose a finger, an arm, or their lives. Capitalists aren't going to develop cancer because of the conditions in their factories. Capitalists aren't going to fall to their death at work. It is workers who risk the most.

If apple workers paid the company for the capital and kept the phones, they would be arrested.Workers have no control. They live under dictatorship of the capitalist above them.

A worker cannot decide to work in a different way because the current way is a bit too dangerous. A worker cannot decide to stay home when they feel like it. Their only decision is which capitalist they will work for.

The bold quote is very out of touch for most of the working class. This is something true for people born into the capitalist class. Working class people cannot afford to stop working. They cannot afford expensive graduate tuition and they certainly do not have the capital to start their own company or they wouldn't be working class, they'd be capitalist class.

It may be true to say that anyone could become capitalist class but capitalism requires most people to be working class.

Are we in the 1920s? Are you sure? Who in the western countries works because they starve? Most work because they have mortgages, car loans, and cc debt and no income-generating investments. Food is cheap and abundant.

There are so many opportunities in the capitalist societies that is just not funny anymore.

BTW, any worker can become capitalist. There is no law that says if you are born poor you must die poor. This is not 1300s England.

People stay poor because of their inability to understand the system, or simply they stay poor by choice.

Who says that the working class has to move up to the 1%? The education system is designed to produce workers, managers, and future leaders. Only a small percentage of people born in the working-class families can improve their socio-economic status. Why? Because of the IQ distribution. You have heard of scholarships, haven't you? Score perfect on SATs and you are guaranteed free education in the US.

The system works well with nature. IQ distributions are natural. So is the system. Is it cruel? Sure, so is nature.

People aren't starving but they are hungry. 40 million Americans are food insecure. This is the visible threat of what will happen if you refuse to have your labor value stolen.

When you use western countries to define capitalism you are falling into the capitalist trap of externalized costs. Capitalism does a great job at externalizing costs. As time progresses, more and more of the working class is located outside of the western countries. We live well by importing cheap goods but they are cheap because we are externalizing the costs. We aren't paying for our goods but the poor workers are paying for them with most of their labor value. Producing a car or a phone is not any easier in china but it is significantly cheaper because more can be stolen from people with less power.

So no its not the 1920 but eventually capitalism runs out of things and people to exploit...

Any worker can become a capitalist but most workers cannot. That is the issue. The fact that anyone can win the lottery does not tell us anything about realistic probability.

IQ scores don't measure intelligence. IQ is a farce. Stop pretending this social constructed test is "natural" and so that you can use it to try to justify the hierarchal oppression of the masses.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/iq-scores-not-accurate-marker-of-intelligence-study-shows/
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23931870-400-the-truth-about-intelligence-do-iq-tests-really-work/