Quote from: TECSHARE on November 29, 2018, 08:25:57 AM

Quote from: coins4commies on November 26, 2018, 05:08:01 PM

The only argument you've made about it being "stealing the property of rights of others" is that printing money does that which is already standard procedure.

Not the only argument, but yet another argument you have been unable to refute. Printing money does steal buying power from the currency holders. Just because it is standard procedure already doesn't make it good or acceptable. By that logic since the system of Capitalism we operate under is standard procedure, we should keep being Capitalist. Again, I never advocated for inflation, you did as a requirement for your implementations of Socialism.

But we are arguing about capitalism vs socialism. If we change from capitalism to socialism and everything else stays the same, you cannot make an argument against socialism that is entirely based on one of those other variables. If printing money is bad, it is bad regardless of your economic system. That belongs in a gold standard vs fiat discussion.

Quote from: TECSHARE on November 29, 2018, 08:25:57 AM

Quote from: coins4commies on November 26, 2018, 05:08:01 PM

Who said anything about "endless money printing". This is a very specific policy used in a very specific way. Money loses some of its value when you grow the economy but where do you think the value of the dollar comes from? What has happened to the value of the dollar over the last 50 years? What is so bad about that?

The buying power of the dollar has plummeted over the last 50 years. What is so bad about that is people who work and save for a lifetime suddenly find their savings are worth a small fraction of what they worked for. What is so bad about that is you have to debase the ENTIRE ECONOMY to do this. It is like cutting off your legs below the knee, and taping them on top of your head then telling everyone to look at how much taller you are.

The value of the dollar constitutionally is a very specific amount of gold and silver. Over time this backing was removed and we entered into a system that essentially was backed by the utility of being easy to use for buying and selling oil. Over the years they have just printed so much money though the economy is completely debased and a global economic collapse is now unavoidable. You create a magic button that prints money and expect it not to be abused? Please.

When people do it its called counterfeiting, when banks do it its called "quantitative easing".

We don't want people saving money in mattresses. Having some inflation is great because instead of holding money for 50 years, people go out and spend that money. This kind of monetary policy (a little inflation, but not too much) encourages economic growth and has nothing to do with who owns the means of production. Gold and silver have limited value, fiat does not. Value of the US dollar is derived from the governments ability to collect tax. As long as the US dollar is the only currency accepted by the IRS, and the US government is able to enforce its taxes, there will be a massive demand for the US dollar. Growing the economy and specifically income taxes creates more tax revenue, which adds to this arbitrary value. Money held in a mattress cannot put goods in motion nor be taxed and is useless to society.

Quote from: TECSHARE on November 29, 2018, 08:25:57 AM

Quote from: coins4commies on November 26, 2018, 05:08:01 PM

Have you never heard of HR? Supply and demand being used on humans is what makes capitalism such a moral quandry. Capitalists need to reduce costs to stay competitive in the market so they keep wages as low as possible and terminate jobs that extract less profit. Market forces means jobs chase poverty. This is why GM is moving their plants overseas.

Yes, and? GM is moving overseas because they are failing. They are failing because people aren't buying the cars they are producing. People aren't buying cars because the value of the currency has been so debased, no one trusts the economic system any more. As a result people aren't taking risks and starting business that would employ people and allow them to afford to buy more vehicles.

This system is what makes the use of natural resources most efficient. Jobs that aren't creating profit are not creating resources, they are only burning them. Simply consuming is not the path to a functional economy.

The idea that GM was failing is why capitalism is inefficient and immoral.

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GM said made about $2.8 billion on its North American business in the third quarter, up from about $2.1 billion a year ago.

If 2.8 billion in profit is failure, then what does it take for capitalism to succeed? This should be enough empirical evidence that this system is completely unsustainable. How much money do you have to extract before it is "enough"?

By contrast, GM employees could all be sharing that 2.8 billion profit and not have to worry about being laid off due to calculations that the shareholders can steal even MORE money from workers overseas.

The only thing efficient about capitalism is that its efficient at redistributing labor value away from the worker and to the 1%.

Quote from: TECSHARE on November 29, 2018, 08:25:57 AM

Quote from: coins4commies on November 26, 2018, 05:08:01 PM

No one said "burning through resources" was "automatically better". That was the straw man because the argument was about creating companies in areas of need with workers who are unemployed to fill in the gaps of the economy capitalism cannot address.

Actually, this is exactly what you advocated:

"...Higher wages for the working class means more disposable money for this large group of people to spend. Higher demand leads to an increase in production to meet the demand. This is a lot more activity than what the "money holders" who got "robbed" would have done with that money. "

Here your logical progression is, if we simply pay people more, they will spend more and the economy will be better! That is like someone telling you they have a huge credit card bill and you suggest they use their credit card to pay it off. The initial profit and resources still have to come from somewhere and can not just be invented into existence without theft via inflation, or some other form of theft of rights.

The profit already exists and under capitalism, is being stolen by shareholders. Think about that 2.8 billion dollars from GM that is now about to be spent moving production to another country. Had GM been a cooperative, the workers would have that 2.8 billion to spend here.

Quote from: TECSHARE on November 29, 2018, 08:25:57 AM

Quote from: coins4commies on November 26, 2018, 05:08:01 PM

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Democracy is mob rule. Individuals, minority groups, and fringe individuals have no rights under a pure Democracy. In a pure Democracy the many always take the rights of the few. This is how power is centralized via pure Democracy, by uniting the majority against the minority.

ok I'm glad we have finally established that it is democracy you are against.

I am against pure democracy. Mobs do not make smart choices and are easily lead around because they don't make the effort to be informed and have no problem pretending to be. More importantly the rights of the marginalized, minorities, and individuals are sacrificed by the dictate of the majority.

This is your first argument directly against what we want and it is how you should lead your arguments against socialism. I am frustrated that we wasted so much time getting here. Instead of wasting time strawmanning about why the Soviet union was bad, just come right out and say you hate democracy.

Isn't "making bad choices" just the cost of freedom? I feel like people learn the hard way in democracy. If a "mob" makes a bad choice, they will pay the consequences and probably won't make that choice again. Its like burning your hand on a hot stove. We shouldn't treat people like babies who have to be bossed around.

Quote from: TECSHARE on November 29, 2018, 08:25:57 AM

Quote from: coins4commies on November 26, 2018, 05:08:01 PM

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What you have is a pretty fantasy. You keep telling me about how great it would be but you aren't giving me any details on how that is going to happen without systematically robbing and stripping people of their rights.

The idea I have laid out have been done and do not strip any rights. You haven't mentioned any rights that would be stripped but have only repeated that statement. Its almost as if you have operant talking points that were crafted by someone else against something else.

Oh it has been done? Where, your precious go to one hit wonder Marcora laws that I already broke down as being capitalist in nature except for the government subsidies? I have mentioned exactly rights that will be taken. Property rights. Since all rights are forms of property rights, this is pretty fucking important. The right to have a dollar remain to be worth a dollar. The right to not be stolen from via inflation, confiscation, or taxation to fund ever expanding handouts.

None of these things listed are rights. You don't have rights to control what other people do. You don't have rights over society. Money is controled by all of us. If you don't like money, don't use it. No one is forcing you to use US dollars. Hold your money in bitcoin. If you don't like taxes, then don't participate in and benefit from our economy. Again, this paragraph has nothing to do with the economic system and everything to do with your disdain for not having complete control over society. If everyone doesn't have to do everything your way then your rights have somehow been violated.

I understand the desire but why do capitalists feel entitled to control over other people.