Quote from: bitserve on December 30, 2018, 06:46:35 AM

I am an L2/LN fan though. You seem to be not, it's ok.

i am not dead against lightning. i understand its NICHE. but i am a realist who is happy to be loud enough to inform people of its negatives and limitations. i dont like the false advertising "this is a fluffy unicorn solution that will solve everything" over promise that keeps happening
here are the devs themselves admitting LN has issues. limitations, complications
https://youtu.be/8lMLo-7yF5k?t=570

as for lightning. calling it a bitcoin layer or a bitcoin feature is just propaganda sponsorship buzzwords to make investors think they are buying into bitcoin because a separate network is throwing the word bitcoin about ALOT(too often).
funny thing is like how blockstream throw in the word bitcoin to get investment.. but then try to downplay and say that the money they get from blockstream investors has nothing to do with bitcoin development
or how litecoin is bitcoins silver
or how circle is bitcoin service (though its actually a FIAT business)

LN is a separate network. if no bitcoiners used LN, LN would still function. as its a separate network that litecoin and vertcoin and other coins can already do and will continue to use no matter if bitcoin is popular or not.

research it. hint: chainhash
here ill even show you a few lines of code that LN is not a bitcoin feature but a separate network for different coins
https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/chainregistry.go#L580

Code:

litecoinMainnetGenesis = chainhash.Hash([chainhash.HashSize]byte{
0xe2, 0xbf, 0x04, 0x7e, 0x7e, 0x5a, 0x19, 0x1a,
0xa4, 0xef, 0x34, 0xd3, 0x14, 0x97, 0x9d, 0xc9,
0x98, 0x6e, 0x0f, 0x19, 0x25, 0x1e, 0xda, 0xba,
0x59, 0x40, 0xfd, 0x1f, 0xe3, 0x65, 0xa7, 0x12,
})

// chainMap is a simple index that maps a chain's genesis hash to the
// chainCode enum for that chain.
chainMap = map[chainhash.Hash]chainCode{

bitcoinTestnetGenesis: bitcoinChain,
litecoinTestnetGenesis: litecoinChain,

bitcoinMainnetGenesis: bitcoinChain,
litecoinMainnetGenesis: litecoinChain,
}

also knowing it locks up coins on network is going to cause UTXO sets get locked up. which lets say just VISAUSA user numbers(not global) used LN. thats 189million UTXO locked for long time periods and not transacting onchain. which will strain fullnodes UTXO issues while fullnode users are then seeing 'empty blocks' leading to less people wanting to be full nodes

having empty blocks is not making bitcoin better, its making bitcoin worse because all it does is when pools want/need fee's to pay for mining. the fee's for the FEWER users remaining on bitcoins network will have to pay more to get a confirm.

again diverting people off network does not help the network.
oh and please dont even bother with the old myth of "gigabytes by midnight" is the only other solution to a non-LN situation
oh and please dont even bother with the old myth of to pay miners limitations are needed on the network to force users to pay more.
oh and please dont bother with the old myth that LN solves the problem for everyone. LN is for a niche of users that spam alot and often. not everyone spends every day so having to lock funds up, spread funds over channels and be online all the time just to get paid is not a benefit to them.

there are many ways. to ofset the spammers from the ones that wont benefit
here is one which doesnt cause every user on the bitcoin network needing an increasing average fee.
(EG current situation. if one person spams txs into a block everyone has to pay a higher fee to bribe a pool)

while also (unbiasedly) persuading the spam every block regular spenders who 'could' benefit from LN to then use it
as using the bitcoin network is costing just the spammers more

Quote from: franky1 on March 03, 2017, 06:33:29 AM

so lets think about a priority fee thats not about rich vs poor(like the old one). not about a network wide everyone should pay an estimated average increased fee(like currently) but about respend spam and bloaters pay more, and everyone else pays for what they use dependant on personal circumstance.

lets imagine we actually use the tx age combined with CLTV to signal the network that a user is willing to add some maturity time if their tx age is under a day, to signal they want it confirmed but allowing themselves to be locked out of spending for an average of 24 hours because they are happy to wait to get cheaper fees.. or rduce the lock if they want priority by paying more for less delay.

and where the bloat of the tx vs the blocksize has some impact too... rather than the old formulae with was more about the value of the tx

as you can see its not about tx value. its about bloat and age.
this way
those not wanting to spend more than once a day and dont bloat the blocks get preferential treatment onchain.
if you are willing to wait a day but your taking up 1% of the blockspace. you pay more
if you want to be a spammer spending every block. you pay the price
and if you want to be a total ass-hat and be both bloated and respending often you pay the ultimate price

and lastly about lightning..
if you research into eltoo and read about the purpose of factories. to vault coins up(step 1) and then separately a step away from the blockchain create unconfirmed/unaudited payments.. which are then sent to users for users to use those as their channel open initial states(not blockchained UTXO)

this makes factories like the fortknox of gold then offering promissory notes.
the purpose then is to PREVENT USERS from just exiting back to bitcoins network. but instead hand back the unconfirmed updated initial state payment. to a factory. and the factory just give them new crisp unfolded payments to open channels.

meaning people are less able to individually just exit back to bitcoins network.. much like how banks done it with the gold/bank note business plan in the 18th century.. and we know how that played out

thunderdome: 2 may enter but only 1 may leave
LN factory: bitcoin and litecoin may enter but only litecoin may leave
banks: gold and silver may enter, but only silver may leave

yes factories are designed to reduce/prevent users broadcasting back to the bitcoin network.
you can dress it up in as many pink dresses and fluffy unicorns of how its a benefit. but atleast be open minded to the consequences.. after all banks done the fluffy unicorn promotions too about how returning back to gold was 'bad' and stayin with vaulted up gold while playing with unaudited payment methods was good

again i understand LN's NICHE utility for the few that may need it. but over selling LN as the utopia solution for all. and selling it as a feature of bitcoin.. is going too far. especially as those overselling LN are the ones saying bitcoin cant cope.. which leads to actually people prefering to leave LN using other coins.. thus not helping bitcoin