Quote from: HeRetiK on December 31, 2018, 12:30:12 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 31, 2018, 10:01:24 AM

Quote from: HeRetiK on December 30, 2018, 12:23:47 PM

One more reason to not use Coinbase then. Any exchange that goes beyond the necessities of KYC / AML should be avoided like the plague. If you get your account frozen on the likes of Coinbase you should have stuck with PayPal. Same difference, but without the extra steps of going through crypto.

That was not the point of the debate, and not using an exchange is an insignificant a solution to the taint problem.

Not using an exchange that is trigger happy in freezing accounts beyond what is legally required of them is a solution however.

There's plenty of alternatives that are not quite as restrictive while still sticking to global and local regulations -- even amongst centralized exchanges. Additionally using a centralized service as wallet is leading the concept of cryptocurrencies ad absurdum anyway.

I absolutely respect if an exchange freezes an account because they are subpoenaed to do so based on concrete suspicions by law enforcement. But if Coinbase starts getting PayPal on people's asses it's time to move out.

But that does not solve the problem that we could be digging ourselves in a deeper hole when we taint our coins further through mixers, tumblers, and coinjoins.

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 30, 2018, 09:50:31 AM

Quote from: HeRetiK on December 30, 2018, 12:23:47 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 30, 2018, 09:50:31 AM

It goes back to the debate. What kind of users have too much to hide that are incentivized to pay for tumbling, and why should I mix my coins with their coins?

Would you, personally, post your bank statements publicly on the internet?

No, but neither would drug dealers, money launderers, scammers, or thieves.

So does this make you a drug dealer, money launderer or thieve? It doesn't. And neither does wanting some privacy on public blockchains.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 31, 2018, 10:01:24 AM

Quote from: HeRetiK on December 30, 2018, 12:23:47 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 30, 2018, 09:50:31 AM

What is the estimated, average fee to mix 1 Bitcoin?

Wasabi Wallet charges 0.003% per anonymity set which apparently comes down to 0.15% per transaction [1]. ChipMixer relies on donations and can thus be used to mix for free, but will keep any amount smaller than 0.001 BTC as donation [2]. Other options likely fall within similar fee ranges.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9sziy5/privacy_wasabi_wallet_10_is_finally_released/e90mlvu/
[2] https://chipmixer.com/faq

How much in Bitcoin on average for tumblers?

Wasabi is 0.15 Bitcoins?

0.15% of 1 BTC is 0.0015 BTC

Most Bitcoin ATMs and Local Bitcoin sellers charge around 2% - 5%. Even Coinbase charges 1.49% [1] which is literally an order of magnitude more expensive.

[1] https://support.coinbase.com/customer/en/portal/articles/1826294-how-are-fees-applied-when-i-buy-or-sell-digital-currency-

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 31, 2018, 10:01:24 AM

Quote from: HeRetiK on December 30, 2018, 12:23:47 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 30, 2018, 09:50:31 AM

Or people with something to hide.

Not being able to keep private from governments is a threat to democracy. Heck, to any free society that relies on a centralized, hierarchical government.

As is the thinking that only "people with something to hide" want privacy.

Remember East Germany. I don't even want to imagine what a modern day Stasi could do with modern technology and data at hand.

This is the point! In their search for privacy, they might be digging themselves into a deeper hole because they would be mixing their coins with "tainted dirty" coins.

As long as it's not their own "tainted" coins their privacy is prevailed. You can't be held accountable for crimes you didn't commit.

But some exchanges might protect themselves by freezing your account, and confiscate your coins. People holding tainted coins are still at risk.

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If you're worried about using privacy enhancing methods because it may make you look suspious, you might be already be living in an oppressive regime. The only antidote against privacy enhancing methods becoming suspicious, is privacy enhancing tools becoming the norm.

Keep in mind, only a couple decades back, secure internet connections where deemed technology that should not be available to the regular citizen -- because what would they have to hide? Nowadays a world without HTTPS would be unthinkable, with ecommerce and ebanking being an impossibility.

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Anyway, it's hard to objectively discuss something that is mostly a matter of personal philosophy. Luckily Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies offer possibilities to be as private or as transparent as personally preferred. Just remember that equating "privacy" with "crime" is not a slippery slope, but the ditch at the end of it.

Then I will ask you this. Is it an impossible idea that NO CRIMINALS are using mixers, and coinjoins?

Believing that all coins going through them are "clean", would be stupid.