Quote from: nutildah on January 02, 2019, 08:55:00 AM

OK first of all you're doing some mass averaging here. Thats NOT the same thing as a median!

your using median.. thats so much fail on you
4,4,5,8,16
your median is 5
average is 7.4
so your under estimating.. (your pink fluffy clouding numbers)
EG
if there was only 5 seats on a bus and the bus had a 'bid for seat' system where by 10people offered
4,4,4,5,5,5,5,5,8,16

these people will get to sit down
5,5,5,8,16
these wont
4,4,4,5,5
so if you looked at a median and seen so far median is 5 and you paid 5. you would have been at the back of the queue of the people that paid 5 so you as an 11th person would be part of the 4,4,4,5,5,5 lot that wont get a seat
where as by going for average 7.4 i would have jumped the queue your stuck in and i would have got a seat
5,5,7.4,8,16
leaving you and another 5 payer waiting for the next bus, HOPING to get on
4,4,4,5,5,5,5

then 10 further fresh people see the average is now 8.28
4,4,4,5,5,5,5 + 8,8,8,9,9,9,9,9,16,16,32,32
guess what
9,16,16,32,32
get on the bus... and your still waiting

secondly, LACK of a fee priority mechanism* , causes EVERYONE to pay more
(that is designed to cost an individual more if they spam tx's)
thirdly having to rely on a website to tell you what the best estimate of fee should be
and having and a node that doesnt easily tell people the bytes of a transaction to even use the estimate is not good practice.

EG if everyone sees 1028sats as the suggestion. not everyone will get in a block because everyones just sheep following a estimate. as shown in example above

the "free market" of a fee market is not helpful. its actually harmful
a proper fee formulae needs to come back in play that actually treats people individually based on their circumstances...
and here is a thing that LN greed lovers will love. a proper fee formulae IN BITCOIN will help those that dont need LN(non spammers have cheap fee ONCHAIN) but also really push those that would fit the LN NICHE to use LN(EXPENSIVE FEE onchain)..
the ridiculousness of a spammer pushing up fee's for everyone is not logical, ethical, economical.. its just greed to persuade people to not enjoy using bitcoin

Quote from: nutildah on January 02, 2019, 08:55:00 AM

The fastest and cheapest transaction fee is currently 4 satoshis/byte, shown in green at the top.
For the median transaction size of 257 bytes, this results in a fee of 1,028 satoshis.
1,028 satoshis = slightly less than four cents!
If somebody wants to pay a $1 fee on a $1,000 transaction, that's their business and it beats out most fiat payment processors.

if everyone paid 4cents everyone wont get "fast" transacting

plus your using the same lame argument that it can cost you as little as 10cents to make a cup of coffee at home. so expect to pay that for all coffee no matter where you go

Quote from: franky1 on January 02, 2019, 06:34:21 AM

as for "not exactly expensive". im guessing your ignorant to the part of the planet where under 20cents is an hours labour

Quote from: nutildah on January 02, 2019, 08:55:00 AM

I live in the Philippines where 50 cents an hour is a decent salary so you're pretty much dead wrong. People who make 20 cents an hour simply don't have the time or the resources to screw around with bitcoin. They probably don't have access to steady internet or phones capable of supporting a bitcoin wallet. The average world salary is roughly $9 an hour.

are you watching too many of them 1980's oxfam videos with specifically chosen background music to play on harp strings
you do know that things are not like the 1980's
yea no one is going to spend $600 on an iphone.. but there are cheaper smartphones people have. oh and as for no access to internet/cellular service.. maybe you need to research Mpesa. and countries which skipped passed landlines and decades of 54k, 0.5mb-5mb broadband, fibre.. yep skipped all that and moved straight to 4g/5g

and as for your mindset that bitcoin should only be for developed countries and rich people.. thats putting up barriers of entry and excluding people.
those that would actually benefit from bitcoin the most are the unbanked.
oh and please dont rebutt that they should lock value up and use multisig factories(LN). as thats just the same to them as opening a bank account (once you wash away the pink fluffy buzzwords)

P.S i am a whit brit with hoards of btc. but even i can be open to those not in my situation. just a shame you cant.

Quote from: nutildah on January 02, 2019, 08:55:00 AM

Quote from: franky1 on January 02, 2019, 06:34:21 AM

if people have to pay an hours labour just in fees. they wont see an advantage of it compared to mpesa and other things.
if it costs more an hours labour just to vault up crypto old banker-esq co-sign business models.. why bother

Again your conflating averages with medians. It's a specious argument made to further your weird narrative about bitcoin being bad.

again median LOL.. you have no clue..

im not the one saying bitcoin is bad. but those saying
bitcoin cant scale
bitcoin wont work for X,Y,Z.
need to push people off bitcoins network
need to innovate other networks as there is no point innovating bitcoin network

are the ones saying bitcoin is bad.
...
lets get to the point. i understand that you thinking 20cents is reasonable, because your greed is HOPING that if you get LUCKY to be a factory you can charge upto 19cents and still be seen as cheaper..
but pushing bitcoin networks to a "its ok to be expensive for millions of people" is not open barrierless mindset. thats just selfish hope of greed

having the mindset of LN promoters who want
bitcoin fee's to go up
to want people to move off the bitcoin network
users to not have 100% control but have to rely on co-signers being online
users to have to close out to a factory(not self broadcast back to bitcoin)
where the factory is incentivised to keep people in LN

is not having a positive bitcoin mindset